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Brexit (merged threads)

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#16 John Allan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 04:33 PM

 

That is difficult to answer as no one knows at this point whether or not it is in the best interest of the country. Clearly remain voters do not, and leave voters do, both depending on their respective agendas.

Difficult to answer? How democratic, just like Westminster.

 

Vote SNP.

 

 

Do you mean diplomatic? Not sure a static comment can be democratic. While I wouldn't vote SNP, I agree with you. If you feel another party could change what you want, then vote for that representative.



#17 Ghostrider

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 05:40 PM

This weekend many of our political leaders will attend the cenotaphs in remembrance to the many who gave their lives during the war, those brave souls obeying the countries decision and fighting for freedom.

 

 

A freedom won but slowly taken away from us by regulatory decisions from a non democratic body from Brussels representing the EU .

 

How many of our political leaders can genuinely stand at the cenotaph and show respect when they are disobeying the countries wishes by not adhering to the national vote to leave the EU.

 

Hypocrites I call them, suppose they would see themselves as conscientious objectors

 

No worse than they, and their predecessors have done for the last 45 years, ever since we joined the then EEC.

 

Less than 28 years after being taught to hate and kill every German for over 5 years, and seeing numerous of their acquaintences put in the ground, both in the line of 'duty' and as 'collateral damage', the survivors were supposed to 'forgive and forget' and get all cosy with those they'd accepeted as sworn enemies, so short (to them at least) previously.

 

For many it was the ultimate betrayal to all involved by their country and government, whom they never forgave to their dying day.

 

As many said, after a death, there has to be a period that things need to 'just be left to lie' so as be 'respectful', and as far as they were concerned the period after '45 that things should have been left to lie, was the time it took for at least all the participants to be in the ground from natural causes.

 

I can fully understand their sentiment, as imagine if the UK had spent '85 - '90 shooting and generally blowing to kingdom come some other nation, and we now were being expected to embrace that nation and its current population as the best of buddies. I sure as hell wouldn't be up for it, but thats what the Government expected everyone over 40 in 1973 to do.



#18 Ghostrider

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:16 PM

I think that the majority of voters, really had no idea of the complexity and level of difficulty in extricating us from the EU, or were even considering the possible negative consequences. I've got my pension, I'm all right. maybe.

 

I don't think politicians knew either before the referendum, or do even yet.

 

Leaving is just the mirror image of joining though, I don't think the politicians who took us in had the first clue as to the complexity or difficulties of tryng to make our union to the continentals work, nor of the potential negative consequences. It was all 'don the rose tinted and crash right in'.

 

There was certainly a very bumpy road in the aftermath of joining for several years, until Thatcher did a 'Paul Daniels' to raise cash by somehow convincing a gullible public it was a brilliant scheme to sell back to them what they already owned. Prior to that it had been rampant inflation, the three day week, numerous and continual strikes, and successive short term unstable Labour governments leaving the country run more by a handful of loony lefty trade unionists than the elected representatives.

 

Yes, there's always going to be the old argument as to whether those troubled times would have happened anyway if we'd never joined, and the parallel one that it would have been much worse if we hadn't been in. Those can never be proven or disproven, as they're possible alternative histories which never happened, the only thing that cannot be disputed is that being in didn't prevent it happening.

 

Yeah, no doubt there will be bumps coming back out too, it would be naive to expect otherwise. The alternative though is to remain in an unholy union that has never worked very well, and has been working less well by the day now for the last decade or two, until the whole rotten sheebang implodes in on itself and leaves its members to crawl from the wreckage and have to try and do as best they can on their tod with whatever they're left with.

 

Personally I'd rather we bailed now in a planned and orderly manner and faced the inevitable issues that raises while we have time on our side and some resources left to do it, than have to try and drag ourselves up by the bootstraps after they've bled us dry yet again.

 

If anybody is making the bumps in the road ahead greater obstacles than they ever needed be, its the numpties in charge in Westminster, who have spent the last 18 month pissing everything away and running around like headless hens instead of simply getting on with the job of building relationships and contacts with the rest of the world outside the EU to slip as seamlessly as possible through the transition.

 

The EU will not survive in its present form, the writing is on the wall for it. The only questions are whether it can, or is willing to change, or how long the patient will be kept on life support and at what cost to those members who are hell-bent to remain paid up members of that club until they go down with the ship.


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#19 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:36 PM

Democracy is a principle of equality upheld my elected representatives. This means we vote representatives to make decisions which they feel will benefit us as a people and a nation, and we should vote against them as representatives if we feel those principles are not met or upheld.  Democracy does not mean that every decision is put through an electoral process. That would be absolute mayhem.

 

We did have a referendum in 1975 on whether to join the common market (EU) and agreed to the Treaty of Rome based on that. The result was almost a flip-side of what we had with Brexit. Scotland and N.I. averaged 45%-65% for yes, with England and Wales averaging well over 65% and more for yes. Shetland and the Hebrides well below 45% for yes. The UK at this time had few other options, trade within the commonwealth was falling rapidly and the UK was losing world influence, so a free trade agreement with the European states was a pretty logical thing to do. I guess time will tell whether UK trade has now recovered enough to be independent of the EU!!!

 

With all that said, I would not trust the current level of competence of a politician at Holyrood, Westminster or Brussels at the moment.

You personally might well vote in representatives to make decisions which they feel will benefit people and nation, I tend to vote for candidates on what they put in their or their party's manifesto.

There's no such thing as "the European states", no matter how much the numpties would like you to believe that; there are countries which are members of the EU.

The MPs had plenty of time to vote at various stages regarding BREXIT prior to the actual referendum and to try to go for a second referendum is insulting, as is May's current fudge.  I voted to leave, I didn't vote to do the hokey pokey with one leg in and one leg out.


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#20 Ghostrider

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:39 PM

I ask again, what if voters were demonstrably given false information by one side in particular, who used illegal methods?

 

And what if statistics point to the decision being reversed if the referendum was run again knowing what we now know?

 

And what about the fact that referendums in the UK are not constitutionally binding and only serve to inform a sovereign and democratically elected parliament?

 

IMHO Members of Parliament are duty bound to consider these factors and not use the slim majority of the referendum as their only guide in deciding the best path for the country.

 

Anybody that based their voting on the 'information' being bandied about by either side immediatey before the referendum deserves whatever they get. We al know, or at least should know, that electioneering these days is wholly sensationalist, grossly exaggerated and at best serve to draw attention to the pertinent issues of that moment. The so-called 'information' accompanying it has comedy/entertainment value at best (but usually not).

 

You base your vote on what you knew about whatever you're voting on up to the point the vote was announced, as what they were before, is what they will be after.

 

What do 'we know now'? Not much more than we knew before as far as I can see. Since the vote both sides have just continued throwing around the same sensationalist, over exaggerated garbage. The one thing we have learned is that the leading lights on the continent have shown ther true colours, by having more tantrums and hissy fits over us leaving than a lift packed with queens and toddlers stuck between floors, not to mention the amount of toys they're held going from their prams.....

 

For no other reason, *if* the referendum was re-run I would vote to leave again just on the grounds of our so-called 'European partners' behaviour since the last vote.

 

Instead of sitting down and calmly discussing issues, and attempting to negotiate something that was more palatable to live with to persuade us to change our minds, they've been nothing but hoity-toity and offended that we've had the audacity to not be a member of 'their gang' any more. Then there's been the apparent barrage of spiteful 'revenge' and petty puntive threats from them.....With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies.


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#21 John Allan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:07 PM

>>You personally might well vote in representatives to make decisions which they feel will benefit >>people and nation, I tend to vote for candidates on what they put in their or their party's >>manifesto.
 
Good. I'm pretty certain everyone does. My post answered a point, (in the third and not first person) on the democratic process. Though MP's make hundreds of decisions for you each year that are outside of a given parties manifesto, well over 300 a year and this doesn't include those in Holyrood. You can see them all here for the coming year https://services.parliament.uk/bills/
 
>>There's no such thing as "the European states", no matter how much the numpties ...
 
I never said there was, so a bit irrelevant to my post, so I presume this is aimed at someone else. 
 
>>The MPs had plenty of time to vote at various stages regarding BREXIT ...
 
I never said there wasn't, so again irrelevant to my post.
 

 

 

Democracy is a principle of equality upheld my elected representatives. This means we vote representatives to make decisions which they feel will benefit us as a people and a nation, and we should vote against them as representatives if we feel those principles are not met or upheld.  Democracy does not mean that every decision is put through an electoral process. That would be absolute mayhem.

 

We did have a referendum in 1975 on whether to join the common market (EU) and agreed to the Treaty of Rome based on that. The result was almost a flip-side of what we had with Brexit. Scotland and N.I. averaged 45%-65% for yes, with England and Wales averaging well over 65% and more for yes. Shetland and the Hebrides well below 45% for yes. The UK at this time had few other options, trade within the commonwealth was falling rapidly and the UK was losing world influence, so a free trade agreement with the European states was a pretty logical thing to do. I guess time will tell whether UK trade has now recovered enough to be independent of the EU!!!

 

With all that said, I would not trust the current level of competence of a politician at Holyrood, Westminster or Brussels at the moment.

You personally might well vote in representatives to make decisions which they feel will benefit people and nation, I tend to vote for candidates on what they put in their or their party's manifesto.

There's no such thing as "the European states", no matter how much the numpties would like you to believe that; there are countries which are members of the EU.

The MPs had plenty of time to vote at various stages regarding BREXIT prior to the actual referendum and to try to go for a second referendum is insulting, as is May's current fudge.  I voted to leave, I didn't vote to do the hokey pokey with one leg in and one leg out.

 


Edited by John Allan, 08 November 2018 - 11:09 PM.


#22 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:22 PM

... , so a free trade agreement with the European states was a pretty logical thing to do.



#23 John Allan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:46 PM

In the 1960/70s? Absolutely. Most economists on both side of the Brexit debate agree that becoming a member state strengthened the UK economy and avoided progressive economic decline, the reason we were given the title of the "sick man of Europe" in the 60s and 70s.

 

But as noted, time will tell on how are economy will look after 2019. I'm pretty optimistic that the UK economy is strong enough 40 years later, but I suppose we will see over the next few years.

 

 

... , so a free trade agreement with the European states was a pretty logical thing to do.

 



#24 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:55 PM

@ John Allan

They are member nations, member countries but they are NOT "states".  It is not the United States of Europe, even though they try to persuade folk to accept that ideology.

Edit:  Wikipedia might well refer to "member states" but the EU website does not.


Edited by Suffererof1crankymofo, 08 November 2018 - 11:56 PM.


#25 John Allan

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:23 AM

Wiki? Not sure. Both Strasbourg and the European commission do http://en.strasbourg...s,44987,en.html here you will see the map of the "Member states", entitled "Member States of the European Union and the Council of Europe",  and all official EU commission directives sent to members are directed to and at "Member States".  Just do a search on Member States on the EU website, you will see what I mean. But call them anything you like  :thmbsup Its a pretty mute point to me. 

 

@ John Allan

They are member nations, member countries but they are NOT "states".  It is not the United States of Europe, even though they try to persuade folk to accept that ideology.

Edit:  Wikipedia might well refer to "member states" but the EU website does not.



#26 Urabug

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:30 AM

Throughout my working life I have always worked together as a team whether I agreed the way things were being done or not.

 

I would makes my views know but get on with the job be it right be it wrong.

 

If all our elected politicians had agreed to disagree but had got on with brexit we would not be the laughing stock of Europe

 

All this disharmony is destroying the country not brexit.

 

it is now becoming very clear  how entangled we are in the EU,so well attached we cannot get away. 

 

Once we do wriggle free and get our freedom back to operate on our own the better,but we do want to deal with Europe but under our own terms not Brussels.

 

If we had know that Alastair and his party  would oppose the democratic decision would he still have been elected to be our representative in Westminster.?



#27 Davie P

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:35 AM

@Davie P

 

....How many referendums do you want ?  As many as it takes to get the result that YOU want or an endless number based on whether some politician is adjudged to have "lied" to the electorate ?

 

I think that referendums should be accompanied by some very clear and pre-agreed terms, conditions and post-referendum processes so that people know what it is they're voting for. Personally, I'm in favour of withdrawing from and/or scaling back many aspects of our EU membership, but I think to present the general public with a simple majority based binary choice vote on what is effectively many hundreds of complex and inter-related socio-economic agreements, whilst feeding the public a load of BS, was both unfair and folly.

 

It is quite clear that little consideration had been given to the detail of leaving the EU or what our relationship with the EU would be once we'd left. That should have been done long before the referendum. 

 

In my opinion, it is quite a stretch of the imagination for the Brexiteers to claim that the Tories watered down, cobbled together, poorly negotiated post-referendum solution represents 'the will of the people'.

 

 

I'll just leave this here....  ;-)

Cltl4jFWEAEbnun.jpg


Edited by Davie P, 09 November 2018 - 12:50 AM.


#28 Davie P

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:55 AM

Genuine question.

 

There's plenty of sweeping rhetoric in the national media about 'taking back control' etc, but what specific changes do you guys hope Brexit will bring?



#29 George.

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:39 AM

Genuine question.

 

There's plenty of sweeping rhetoric in the national media about 'taking back control' etc, but what specific changes do you guys hope Brexit will bring?

 

We'll get our fish back?


Edited by George., 09 November 2018 - 07:01 AM.


#30 Wheelsup

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:51 AM

 

  

We'll get our fish back.

Only until we get dragged back in to the EU if Scotland gets independence.