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Black Gaet roundabout?


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16 replies to this topic

#1 tlady

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 11:29 PM

I had a VERY close call there today and it really shook me up! it is such a blackspot!! a friend suggested a roundabout would make it safer, what do you think? 



#2 Muckle Oxters

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 11:46 PM

Yis, it's no da best junction, especially when da mist is lying at da tap o Gulberwick


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#3 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:43 AM

Hell, no.

 

There's more than one problem with this junction:-

 

1) Impatient drivers, especially those turning right into the junction and turning left towards town.

2) Not being able to judge the speed at which vehicles are moving when approaching the junction from South Mainland; when you are sitting at the junction say waiting to turn right to travel South, there's a dip in the road further up which makes it difficult to judge the vehicles' speed (which might be adding to the thought of 1) above!)

3)  Easy to overshoot the junction, especially in icy conditions.

 

I don't think there is enough space for either a roundabout or traffic lights, although I'd prefer traffic lights to a roundabout.  It might be time to seriously consider re-routing the road.

 

Afterthought:  Drop the speed limit on that section?


Edited by Suffererof1crankymofo, 31 October 2019 - 01:44 AM.

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#4 cicero

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 10:34 AM

How about driving with more care and attention.


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#5 Urabug

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 11:19 AM

Sleeping policemen,speed cameras ,and an array of chicanes would slow everyone down but like "cincero" better everyone just takes more care.  Plenty of places worse to drive in than this,



#6 aaa22

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 12:16 PM

I think I have said this before. I would not think a roundabout would help.

 

As Suffererof1crankymofo points out, in order to put one in it would need to be quite big, to accommodate for 2 lanes and speed of vehicles approaching it. As for the winter part, it’s the going downhill no fun with other cars behind and you are unable to see what’s coming on the road from the right side until you are pretty much at the give way line. I remember (not that long ago) where 6 cars went off the other side of the road and into each other on the approach. There was nothing you could do. The speed limit, maybe. But some good thought would have to be put in to where does it start and finish and how low. Can’t just bang it up just before and finish just after the junction as no one will follow it.

 

The problem is there still would not be enough time for people coming out of the junction to see without blasting away more of the hill. That is why it’s a give way and never will be a roundabout. People will just blast onto it, there will be more accidents with one than without.

 

As I have pointed out before. When I have been waiting to go as cars have approached the black gate from either side most have only decided to indicate only after they enter the right turn box or indicate just as they are turning in. So, in the case of a roundabout…. Well I can see there being more problems. After the roundabouts here in Lerwick I see far too many people going into the left lane and cutting right on the roundabout, no indicators and then waving (in a friendly manner not) at the other car who cannot read their minds as they meant to go right instead of left/the first exit. and to that guy who says well they had their indicators on, have you ever tried to look at the right indicator on most cars from the left side? Most cars you now must be directly in front to see them!

 

Lets not get to far into this, but we all know if one was to be built it will be too small as it would be far to costly to put a proper one in. and we are speaking quite big.

 

In short when approaching the black gate from any side. Don’t panic, just take your time and be patient. Just because someone behind is beeping their horn, getting right up your bumper and flapping and waving does not mean its ok to go. Some may not have the power to pull out and speed up safely so they may wait for a bigger gap. Its surprising just how long 10 seconds feels. If you are someone who lays on the horn and likes to kiss bumpers when someone is waiting to go you are not helping, you could potentially make it worse. Think, it could be a new driver, I am sure you were once a scared first-time solo driver, I know I was. If your one to rush, think, Shetland has one main road, there are plenty of people who have flown passed me at the Cunningsburgh cliffs and yet when I get to Lerwick there they are 5/6 cars ahead, so much time and fuel saved.

 

 

https://youtu.be/qhiO4t9myY4?t=7


Edited by aaa22, 31 October 2019 - 12:18 PM.

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#7 Nigel Bridgman-Elliot

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Posted 01 November 2019 - 11:27 PM

> a dip in the road further up

Sounds like one needs to get rid of the dip.


> traffic lights

Not a fan of those. Expensive to install, costly to maintain, and people don't always take notice of them.


> consider re-routing the road.

Somewhat a fan, as long as it isn't like many such approaches and ends up all bendy.

Maybe a bridge ?


> Sleeping policemen,speed cameras ,and an array of chicanes

Hate all of those !


> The problem is there still would not be enough time for
> people coming out of the junction to see without blasting
> away more of the hill.

Blast away more of the hill !

Or set up a series of mirrors to look behind it..
(Think periscope.)


> we all know if one was to be built it will be too small
> as it would be far to costly to put a proper one in.
> and we are speaking quite big.

Why would a big one cost more than peanuts compared to a small one ?


> Just because someone behind is beeping their horn, getting
> right up your bumper and flapping and waving does not mean
> its ok to go.

Reminds me of London traffic !

Just ignore everyone else and do the safe thing is my approach there.


That google street view URL really helps by the way.

FX [ Goes to look and tries to better understand the situation. ]


So, you'd only really need to reroute one lane wouldn't you ? eg. the one coming out of the junction, rather than the one going into the junction.

Eg. the current lane marked in red, move it to the position marked in blue:
road2.jpg



#8 aaa22

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 05:35 PM

Hello Nigel Bridgman-Elliot

I can see what you are trying to do with your diagram but I don’t think it’s going to work. Main point being is all your doing is moving half the junction further up the road, and thus the problem still remains. Second you have to fill all that area to make it level with that section of road. It’s also got a ditch in that area for land draining. I don’t think the land owner would be happy to have a flooded field. That is where cost comes into it, for this and the roundabout. You could perhaps put the Lerwick bound traffic there but again this is not going to fix anything, and seams pointless. You could make both Lerwick sides enter and exit from here but then you have an extra junction onto those coming from the south side. Perhaps a mini roundabout there, but again this is making it more complicated making it more likely for accidents to happen and costing more and more.

I mention cost allot is because of the nature of the area (and the decisions of council). When you’re on the road looking it’s not obvious. But if you’re coming out of Lerwick heading south and as you come over the hill you can see that each side is very steep. It’s manmade. Lots of dirt trucked in to make a nice... mostly... smooth level road. To keep cost down you would make a small roundabout. You could just perhaps get one the size of the sound school to operate there, but the road is too fast for that design. You may just squeeze the Tesco one there but again said this before people don’t use it right. They drive down the wrong lane or down the middle of them and fail to indicate correctly. Bad enough at 30 zone, think of what they are like at 50-60 zone.

No its people not the junction.  Perhaps this link will also help you as this is the most common thing that seems to happen at the black gate.

example video @3:39 below. It’s very clear where the problem is.

https://youtu.be/cH1IG7ry378?t=209


Edited by aaa22, 02 November 2019 - 05:41 PM.

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#9 tlady

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 11:00 PM

Nigel Bridgman-Elliot .. that photo is a bit scary as that is probably the exact position my car was in when the car (in the same position) in your picture pulled right out before me! thankfully I wasn't going the speed limit, and I have a little light car that can stop quickly, but it was really close! 


Edited by tlady, 02 November 2019 - 11:05 PM.


#10 Nigel Bridgman-Elliot

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 12:15 AM

> Main point being is all your doing is moving half the junction further up the road, and thus the problem still remains.

Which problem is that specifically ?

 

I thought the problem was difficulty in coming out of the turning and seeing to your right ?

 

Is there another problem of folk turning into the turning such as shown in your video ?

(A problem one could say is the same for any turning !)

You could solve that one by the same kind of approach as Spaghetti Junction !

junction.jpg

> Second you have to fill all that area to make it level with that section of road. It’s also got a ditch in that area for land draining.
> I don’t think the land owner would be happy to have a flooded field.

You could install a pipe / tunnel for the water to travel through to solve the flooding issue, or build the road on stilts. :-)

I thought also one of the issues was the steep turning road, with the output moved you could end that steep part before you hit the main road, allowing for a nice long stretch of flat road for people to stop more easily in bad conditions.


All this talk of junctions reminds me of the Tesco car park entrance and associated lead afterwards into said carpark, not being wide enough for two vehicles to easily pass enough other..

 


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#11 davie-L

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:00 AM

It’s not just the Gulberwick side that has issues, on a regular basis I have near misses at the Scalloway Side of the Black Gaet. People exiting the junctions should stop before driving on to the main road in front of cars travelling at 60 mph.

Just because your not looking in your rear view mirror doesn’t mean there is a car/can/truck having to decelerate very quickly so as not to hit you. So many times they pull out and gently accelerate up to 30mph completely oblivious to the potential carnage behind them.

IMHO both ends of the Black Gaet should have stop signs and vehicles have to stop and check the oncoming traffic before pulling out.
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#12 aaa22

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:58 AM

Nigel Bridgman-Elliot. I am not for changing it at all. As in my example video and the comment from tlady, in both scenarios the car that should have given way did not, it’s also clear that the oncoming cars should have been well within their site. Honestly if you are coming out of the black gate to turn right on both sides I feel you should stop and look properly. Perhaps all one needs is a stop sign, as davie-L points out.
 

Putting in spaghetti junction, HA! it’s not a 4 lane cross motorway junction.  I have seen plenty of people drive up the wrong side and drive passed the entrance and go up the next one. No way, nope don’t go there.
 

People just need to engage brain, look, signal in good time and position themselves correctly when driving.


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#13 cicero

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 10:55 AM

Well said aaa22 / as i said earlier drive with care and attention / If people can not cope with a simple junction such as this they should not be on the road / If they ever drive on the mainland how would they cope with some of the junctions there / I think that there is a case for people who pass a test here being made to pass another on the mainland if they are going to drive there.


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#14 Ghostrider

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 02:45 PM

Its a rather crappy junction, there's little debate about that. It and numerous others all over Shetland. It won't matter what gets done to it though, unless you also address the 'operator error' factor.

 

There are any number of 'good' drivers in Shetland, there are also some pretty crappy drivers, who know they're crappy drivers, and seldom cause problems.  Its those who are crappy drivers but believe themselves to be the world's finest, and those who believe all roads are there for their personal convenience and other users will just have to work around them that cause the issues, and unfortunately those latter two groupings seem to be breeding very disproportionately.


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#15 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 04:33 PM

@ cicero - You can drive with all the care and attention in the world but all it takes is one driver not to be doing that and you're screwed, regardless of where you happened to pass your test and drive.  I passed my car driving test in London and my motorcycle tests in Chelmsford, both very different traffic-wise.  I never drove in snow in the car in London and only once on the motorbike, but have driven several times in snow up here.  I'd never driven in fog either down there, and the only time I ever overtook anything in London was a milk float on my driving test (but did obviously overtake vehicles outside of London)!  NOBODY has experience of motorways until the first time they venture onto them, normally when they are no longer a learner.  Where you going to draw the line, perhaps commenting that some toonies never venture outside of it and wouldn't know what to do on a single track lane with passing bays?  And what about those living in the Highlands who never venture say to the likes of Edinburgh or Glasgow, you gonna have a pop at them too?


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