Baron Redsain

Totally agree, its LONG overdue getting it sorted out!

Hi damissinlink, Can you clarify what you are saying or asking here? “I have heard of people buying boats and keeping the original owner on the permit with a share and not even trying to buy the boat and getting the permit transferred 100% into there name, if you go through the proper channels the ssmo should have no objection to it if no more fishing effort or the original owner wants to another permit, as I understand it!!” Are you saying you have heard of someone buying into a boat to get their name on the permit then getting their own boat and going away fishing with the permit now 100% in their own name, meanwhile the original permit holder still has his boat but with no permit? And are you also saying that he (the original permit holder) can now go and get another permit? Sorry just a bit confused Cheers

Hi damissinlink I think you are confused? I have only mentioned Orkney the once? Don’t know anything about the Isle of man licence scheme, But I have just done a google search and find this; The price of a licence to fish in the Isle of Man's territorial sea for the period 01 April 2014 – 31 March 2017 is currently £457. Cheques should be made payable to Isle of man Government and have the vessel name written clearly on the back. Payment should be included with the application. So as you can see it is possible to get one not like here! You are absolutely right, why would anybody want to buy a boat and go fishing if there was nothing to catch? Therefore do we really need permits? It managed here for years without it, and is managing in other areas without it today? I would say stocks are good, and yet they still don’t issue permits.

Why can't someone wanting a shellfish boat do the same, don't any existing permit holders retire, die, go bust or whatever and boats and licences become available that way? Or are you saying that these licences are granted to an individual, are non-transferrable, and if a holder wishes to cease being a licence holder, the only way to do it is to hand it back to the committee who will decide whether they're going to issue it again, and to whom? Yes Ghostrider you have hit the nail on the head. Over the years since the ssmo introduced permits there have been cases where the permit holder has died and the permit was taken away, even though there were Sons wishing to keep it, in this case they had to sell the boat as it was unviable without the permit. I understand something has now been changed regarding this problem, but that is little consolation to those who had to sell their boat. Many permits have been handed in over the years as well, due to retirement or many other reasons, I have heard of more than one who said when they handed it in that they might want it back someday and were told that would be no problem, yet now they have asked and been refused. Others have said that they hoped the committee saw fit to reissue their permit to someone who wanted one and not just scrap it, yet that is exactly what happens it gets swallowed up. There are also permits that are held onto by people yet they never fish. Can’t blame them really because they are afraid to give them up knowing that they would never get the permit back! A loophole does exist where a permit holder can sell their boat to somebody who has no permit, the new owner becomes a shareholder in the boat first then after a time the old owner sells his share leaving the new person with the permit. When the ssmo was introduced it was said that a permit would never have any ££ value and it would not be something that could be sold, clearly this is not the case. I do not blame the persons who have taken advantage of this loophole after all how else will they ever get a permit?

Some good points there trowie246. As far as a lack of ssmo permit holders attending the meeting goes, I would say that the reason for that is they dont want anyone else to get a permit. Most ssmo permit holders are VERY happy to have it as a closed shop. They want it all to themselves. You mention the other industries that are "closed shop" this is incorrect. Take the white fish as an example. there is nothing to stop anyone going out and buying a boat and quota - it will take a serious investment but it can be done. Unlike the ssmo permit which is just not being given to applcants. I am not so familiar with the salmon and mussel sites, but I would think again that it would be possibile to set up business, there is no "local permit" required that is being withheld like the ssmo. I think you would find sites if you wanted. but you would not find a commitee who tell you NO! I agree Orkney has better inshore grounds and more boats, but the point is if somebody there wanted or needed to get a boat they could. but here because of the state of the ssmo you cant! ssmo permit holders favourite saying when defending the permits is " you cant just have a free for all, it will destroy the fishing" Orkney has no permits the rest of the UK have no permits, is that a "free for all"? if so it seems to work just fine? Some good ideas on reducing individual effort and sharing it with more people, no reason why that cant be done, I think that is a very good idea. But, as for the policing that is a very difficult area. The Chairman? I have no issue with Ian personally but in my opinion The Chairman and commitee should have changed on a regular basis, I dont think it does to have the same people all the time? maybe if they had changed around yearly or bi-annualy or whatever things would not have got to this?

what does everybody want out o the ssmo? -- Scrap it. do they want it? -- No. what would be better? No SSMO. how do you make it fair for everybody and keep stocks healthy? Gear restrictions?

I keep hearing the words "free for all" I prefer "Fair for All" As bluebeetle says the shelfish industry managed itself for years without the ssmo. The ssmo was as I understand it, introduced to keep large shellfish vessels outside of "our" Shetland waters, to protect it from being seriously overfished by "outsiders" so, it was managing fine as it was at that time, people came and went into the industry as and when it suited their needs, over the years the number of permits issued has been reduced by how many? is it the case that as time has gone on there are now fewer boats but far more gear? this equals the same effort? added to that you have a few people working creels anyhow because they can't get a permit? would it not be better to issue people permits so you know what exactly is being caught? the ones working 100's of creels could reduce the number to let others get a fair bite of the pie? they are only working part-time after all... I am also lead to understand that at the time it was introduced it was said that NO Shetland person would EVER be refused a permit???? damissing link asks "how many folk is wantin tae go to da scallops or the crabs full time"? That is a very good question? I know of 1 person who wrote to the ssmo explaining that they were to be made redundant and therfore would require a permit to enable them to go creel fishing to support their family, but were told no!! - I think that is wrong. Perhaps it should be that ONLY full-time shellfishing is allowed? That is not my personal opinion, but maybe its worth discussion? It was also said that ssmo permits would never have any value, in other words a person would not be able to sell one, why would you need to after all, as NO Shetland person would ever be refused a permit! The ssmo is supposed to be about protecting the industry for the future generations. it has been 16 years now since it was introduced, yet we now have young people (the future of fishing) turning away from it as they have not a hope in hell of ever getting a permit? So the future is here, yet its a closed door? most people who have ssmo permits think its a great thing. of course they do! the element of human greed will see to that, who in their right mind that has a permit, and is fishing 100's of creels with no other boats to bother them would want 2 or 3 other boats fishing in the area they are in... I bet they will even now be considering the areas they work in to be "their patch" not of course because they have a title deed to the area, but because of the human element of greed. I admire the few ssmo permit holders who have the balls to come out and say that the ssmo needs to be scrapped or reformed! the ssmo has created the situation we are now at, some want it scrapped some want it reformed some feel its making progress, I dont hear anyone say its perfect? All the best, and here's to the future Fair for All !

Sorry I have not got back to this sooner; >>>>>>> How do you 'rotate' permits amongst scallopers and creelers? How? Very Simple… At this time a lot of permits have been held for 14 or 15 years, so take them away and give them to folk on the list. Or every 5 years. Or yearly… The exact way would need to be worked out fairly for ALL concerned. Don’t get me wrong this is not what I want to see, my point is, it is NOT right that only the ones who have a permit can continue to fish, whilst others are prevented. “IF” it is all down to the fact that there is at this time the maximum amount of boats and effort, and there “really” is no way more effort can be made, then it is only right that this is shared amongst ALL local fishermen who want the chance. >>>>>>>>>Do you honestly think someone is going to invest tens, and possibly a hundred thousand plus pounds in a boat and VCU's just to sit idle whilst some one else who 'wants one' sails off with their permit? That’s looking at it from one angle, but what about the poor person who wants to fish but does not have a permit? Do you think its fair that he cannot get a permit, he would like to invest thousands as well, but is denied the chance. For example, an Ex fisherman was facing redundancy recently and the obvious route for him to take was to go back to the fishing, but when he asked the SSMO for a permit he was refused. That person was willing to invest as you say “tens, and possibly a hundred thousand plus pounds in a boat and VCU's” but he was denied that opportunity. Is that fair? Is that right? I do not think so. If anyone is going to as you say “reach for a gun or apply for bankruptcy” surely it is equally that poor person? Then you have the problem of the young people getting started in the industry? The way things stand there can be no young ones as there are no permits being issued, therefore there is NO future? You talk about the people who have invested thousands. Yes some fishermen have invested everything to get their full-time business’s up and running. However, quite a large proportion of the current shellfish fleet has been built up over a number of years part-time, their vessels, equipment and gear have been improved and expanded on by re-investing the profits from their part-time fishing, they don’t need to draw down the money to live on as they have well paid “full-time” employment, again don’t get me wrong I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with other people being denied the same opportunity. Whether that is full or part-time. Maybe there is a need for some sort of regulating order, but its present format needs to be drastically altered.

If its about ensuring that it isn't a free for all that's one thing. At the moment the permits are held by a select few. If its the case that there has to be a set number of permits then they should be rotated amoungst the people who want to have one.

Shellfish licencing is controled by "bureaucrats in Edinburgh or further south" The original idea behind the SSMO was to prevent non-Shetland Boats fishing in Shetland Waters within 6 miles. Now it seems to be a closed shop to the few who have a permit. to Stop Shetland Fishermen from fishing their own waters is just wrong!

So, time to scrap the SSMO then, how does that work? does the Fishermen just stop paying money towards it? or do they just ignore it?

What an excellent Letter in The Shetland Times from Skipper of the Cornucopia suggesting that the SSMO be scrapped.

SSMO – Shetland Shellfish Management Organisation. Please excuse my ignorance here but can someone tell me what this organisations Aims and goals are?

Fantastic idea, hope a lot make the effort to go along, Dangerous idea to close the staton, the technology is NOT yet in place for such a move... and the loss of local knowledge will be massive as the majority of staff will not move south. Notice the MCA have chosen a clever day to have it ! should have been a Saturday!

I am astounded that Aberdeen cost this much !! Why the hell does one station cost so much? And how can they justify keeping the most expensive station open?