scottish skier

No threats. We're not going to send Alex salmonds love child up there anyway! What I mean is a referendum is only 4-5 years away. There appears to be a lot of varied opinion as to what is best in Shetland. If shetlanders don't make up their minds in a united way, they may not get what they want. My guess is, as Shetland is historically - whatever the circumstances and by no fault of any Scot alive - part of Scotland, geologically, geographically and politically, it'll end up as part of an independent Scotland. It could remain part of the UK, but sheltanders would need to say that in a big way as Westminster could not try to 'keep' Shetland without that strong support from Shetlanders. EDIT - maybe I'm confused by your post and it read it wrongly so changed post.

Been following for a wee while. Some very interesting posts. I don't think I've 'got the wrong impression' (as suggested by some) but rather I hope I forming a better one than I had. It has certainly been enlightening to discover that some people in Sheltand seemed to view the Scots as the Scots have viewed the English in times gone by. I was quite taken aback as I never knew this! In terms of persecution - Scots have had plenty of that, e.g. banning of tartan/highland dress, playing of the bagpipes etc after the rising in 1745. We were told we needed to speak 'proper English' too; that's what was taught in Schools and why many Scots speak primarily english with some relic scots thrown in. Interestingly enough, most can still understand/speak scots and related dialects (e.g. such as used in Shetland / I've seen on here), they are just not sure how to write it! So, if anyone is to blame for the demise of local dialects in Shetland, it is the UK education system focus on English. Note were not taught Scottish history either - history began with the empire and WWW's, nothing pre-union the norm in Schools. Half of Scots probably did not know who William Wallace was until Mel Gibson told us. In terms of the future, I would caution Shetlanders not to look at Scotland of the past few hundred years as any reflection on what it might be like under independence. Scotland has not been 'Scotland' since the union, but rather a province of Greater England. Many have been led up the garden path into thinking they lived in a democracy and Scots votes counted/influenced results in westminster, but how could that ever be the case when Scotland makes up only ~8% of the UK population. If you look at historic election results you can remove the entire Scots vote and on most occasions and winning party is the same. England chooses the government in the main. We just have people voting labour, labour winning and that makes them think they helped! Even with the inception of the Scottish parliament this did not change: There is no such thing as 'Scottish Labour', just 'North British Labour' etc. The Scots have finally woken up to this. They'll still vote labour in the main when it comes to general elections (no need to vote SNP there now) in an attempt to stuff the Tories, but they know if they want change, then it is the Scots parliament that will give them that; westminster offers nothing. This is what happened last month. If Scotland votes for independence, which I think is a very real possibility (they voted for some form of home rule 1979 and again in 1997) the Scots people will decide who rules them for the first time in history. Shetland will then find itself looking at a very different Scotland; one it has never known. If you vote liberal, which many in Sheltand do, then I would ask why remain in the UK which will give you a tory or labour government (likely Tory for a while as once they are in, they have a history of being in for a while)? I'd have thought a liberal, social democrat Scotland might be more attractive than that and I would be a better choice for negotiating more 'home rule' given the intricate links between Sheltand and mainlaind Scotland? I guess those who came from Scotland to Shetland would want to be linkec too/part of Scotland. Those who came from England/wales would prefer an affinity with the UK. Those who have nordic ancestry look fondly on the idea of rejoining Norway. Right now I feel I'm living in a dream - one where the Scots finally govern themselves. Part of me says it can't happen as I'm so used to the status quo. However, search all the forums talking about the subject and it is difficult to find many scots who don't want it. The labour old guard is dying, the libs signed their own death warrant by getting into bed with the tories and young scots are reading up on the unternet and coming to the conclusion that their parents did not have the opportunity too, i.e. 'we've been had'. I believe scotland will say 'yes'. I guess Sheltanders need to think and think quickly as to whether they want to join us in making history, obviously with their own wee 'T&C's'. Sorry for the long post!

LOL. Don't do it! Deep fried Mars bar and a bottle of buckfast before you know it. All downhill according to the BBC. We Scots coudnae agrae an thay cuilur a' thay sky! Haf wid aergue t'was mair auqa blae raither thin, sae, turqaise blae, cus oor faither telt is t'was like at; 'Thaim an us', nen ne inglish.... Maybe not now though. Hopefully a time for a change for the scottys!

No snow (well not enough anyway - where is summer ), so too much time on our hands. Not an alter ego of mine anyway! Looking at the results of elections for Shetland I imagine it quite well reflects the diversity of people there... As I understand it, there are the 'natives' (scandinavian or even before in origin) who can trace back a long way, the past and more recent Scots who've moved there, a fair few English too, then others from eleswhere there for the oil industry and/or just because it looks like a wonderful place to live in terms of peace, tranquility, pace of life etc. This diversity, combined with a strong individual identity ('I am a Shetlander', then Scots, British, European, whatever) and wishing to live away from the big city results in a strong liberal vote? This is where I'm trying to see what the preference for the future is. The labour and conservative vote is very small, yet go with Westminster (if Scotland became independent) and that is the government Shetland would get; labour or Conservative. I am a liberal, as are many Scots (SNP are liberal and generally the SNP/liberal vote in Scotland is split between unionist and nationalists), and Scotland currently has a liberal SNP government. But then Sheltlanders are shetlanders first, not Scots by default, so why join with Scotland should Scotland become independent? I guess it is a balance between retaining identity yet getting the best for the Shetland isles. Could Shetland be completely independent? If you look at oil and renewables, financially yes. However, it would be very difficult with respect to trying to manage the big oil companies, fight for a share of the seabed, maintain a presence on the world stage (EU, UN) with such a small population. Thus autonomy looks likes a better option, but associated with which nation? It seems there is a lot of division between Scotland vs UK, with even some suggesting Norway. The latter I can't see as straightforward, but not impossible. Right now the UK and Scotland would be happy to be the associate; I have no idea what Norway would think of such a thing. You guys know westminster. Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory. Same old. SE is what matters most. Scotland and Sheltand to provide the power to keep the place running. Do you know well the SNP government/an independent Scotland? I don't as the former has only been in power 4 years and the latter does not exist, so I imagine you don't either. For me, I've seen 4 years of SNP minority government and I think they did ok. If they are genuine in what they propose and their vision for a fair, social democratic (liberal-left) Scotland (i.e. the Scandinavian model), maybe they might in time look more attractive to Sheltand. Who knows. The thing that seems to unite Shetland is liberalism and nationalism (not complete independence, but strong autonomy). This seems to have finally occured in Scotland too; Scots becoming united under a liberal nationalist party. So, while many of you guys may not want to be seen as Scots, and rightly so, Scotland and Shetland seem to have a good basis for continuing to be friends. I'll add, that much of my support for the SNP comes from the fact that I've really had enough of the childish policits of westminster. Wee posh oxbridge boys playing with big toys: 'Timothy Dalton' for Plaid Cymru. Mature huh? I'm more liking the sound of this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_9494000/9494227.stm And I'm not Alex Salmonds biggest fan, but I do like what the SNP are saying. Hell, if Scotland gets independence, people can all voted liberal, Tory, whatever we want! Don't have to keep the SNP as government. On a parting note, when someone says to me 'what have the English/Labour/Tories' ever done for us', I ask 'what have the Scots ever done for themselves'. Not a whole lot in recent hostory other than grumble. Until recently that is

Thank you for your very informative post. I have learned a lot in the past few days; hours of reading around on the internet will not make up for hearing the views of Shetlanders first hand. I appreciate you accomodating an interloper! As I’ve said before I’m not visiting this forum to convince Shetlanders that joining up with the Scots is the best way forward for them. Nor am I here to try and convince Shetlanders that the unsavoury ‘Scots’ lords that have ruled there in the past were just ‘misunderstood’ ; I see no justification for disputing much of what you say/what I have learned. What I guess I am here to do is learn and at the same time put across the view of the ‘average’ Scot who votes nationalist. I think we fully agree on the Robert Stuart et al. issue – which Scotland completely failed Shetland on. In terms of near serfdom and the clearances, the Scots suffered as heinously as the Shetlanders. Sad times for both lands. One thing I will say is that ‘The Scottish Office’ was not a government of Scotland, but simply a Westminster unionist tool for the management of Scotland. The Scottish Office was probably the most reviled organisation in Scotland. When Shetland and the Highlands/Islands were fighting for crofters rights, they were not fighting the government of Scotland, nor its people, they were fighting Westminster’s representation in Scotland. The fact that they had to bypass the local boss (Scottish Office) and kick up a fuss with the big boss (Westminster) shows how little Westminster cared for the far north of Britain. A solid majority of Scots hated the Scottish Office and all it stood for. Please never associate that institution with the (majority of the) people of Scotland. I think the thing to remember about what happened in Scotland recently is how momentous it is. For the first time in the history of a nation that stretches back over 1100 years, have the people of that nation have the opportunity to decide their own future democratically. You will hear many unionists say ‘Scotland willingly joined the Union’ / it was democratic etc. Scotland was sold by a few of its lords without the people of Scotland having the slightest say in the matter. As for democracy in the UK, it took until ~1918 before all men could vote and 1928 before universal suffrage. Scotland has not been ‘democratically’ in the Union for 300 years, but only for ~90 years at best. Even then, if the support was there for independence, it was not up to the Scots, but up to Westminster to decide, not the people of Scotland. For the past 300 years there has always been a strong core of Scots who support home rule. There have been numerous rebellions; which is hardly indicative of a country supposedly ‘democratically’ within the UK. At the first opportunity, the Scots voted for home rule in 1979 in majority, but it was denied to them by Westminster against all the principles of democracy. Given another chance in 1997 and they voted yes again. They then voted massively (one of the biggest shares of the vote in any democracy within the past few decades) for the SNP, with support for Unionist parties crumbling. Scots now have an opportunity no Scot has ever had before. How they use it is up to them, but it is truly historic. As for the SNP, which seem to lack popularity in Shetland. The lords and lairds that treated Shetland badly were not elected by the Scots; they were the ‘privileged’ upper classes that pervaded throughout Europe at the time. The Scottish Office was not elected by the Scots, but was a tool of unionist Westminster. The Scottish Executive was elected by the Scots, but with only 20% of powers, the Scots still do not rule Scotland, nor Shetland; Westminster does. However, the Scots have voted for the right to choose their future. The SNP are for the Scots and if Scotland votes for independence, then the Scots people will assume responsibility for how it acts towards its neighbours. I don’t expect Shetlanders to be all excited/warm/fuzzy about the above, not if they feel they are ‘Shetlanders’ ahead of anything else. However, the SNP are as close as you can get to actually representing the Scots people; something no Westminster government, Scottish Office nor 19th century laird has ever done. In that sense, they are not ‘a parcel of rogues’ as the real rogues were never vote for. As for Sheltand? Well, do you honestly think David Cameron et al. love Shetland and will look after you? What will happen when the oil runs dry? Will Scotland be any better? I would say maybe a little at least on the basic principle you’d have 1 MSP out of 120 rather than 0.5 out of 650. Personally, given my inherent nationalism, if I was a Shetlander, I’d want autonomy of some stronger form and I’d want to use the current oil and gas/future renewable electricity ace in seeing who (Scotland if independent, UK, Norway) wants to negotiate. If there is one bit of advice I can give, it is to get off backsides and do something. I’ve been waiting 35 years for an SNP government because the Scots were too busy sitting around complaining, voting Labour to keep the Tories out, but with too little faith in themselves to do anything about meaningful change. I was in tears at the SNP victory. Not because I love Alex Salmond, not because I think the SNP are the best thing since sliced bread, not because I hate the English, not because I hate the conservatives. None of these are particularly true. I was in tears because the Scots had finally stopped living up to their reputation as feart whingers (according to many south of the border sadly), and actually said – ‘we can do this’, giving all Scots an opportunity to, for the first time in over 1100 years, decide their own destiny as a people. If Shetlanders want what is best for them, I feel they need to do the same. Strike while the iron is hot, for times are changing. Again, thanks for suffering me! PS, if their are any shetlanders on here who are a bit geeky when it comes to the weather, be it snow, storms, heatwaves (I wish), feel free to visit my 'home' forum. We have a kilted thread which a few shetlanders post on, keeping us informed of approaching arctic blasts and snow prospects. www.netweather.tv I also post on the politics thread funnily enough Cheers, SS

Feel I'm butting in your forum here - I hope it's ok. This is interesting issue for me, particularly as I work in the oil and gas industry - while I have not been to shetland, I feel I have! In fact have recently been consulting on Laggan Tormore and the tie in to FUKA via shetland. If Scotland votes for independence, westminster could say no, but is not really in a position too, unless it's ready to do it Gaddafi style But yes, of course their would be various T & C's to hammer out. As far as I understand it, the SNP support the Shetland movement and stood aside for them in the 1987 election. Not sure of current stance, but it would surprise me if the view had changed at all.

A pity to hear that, however such things don't always work first time. The SNP has been around for a long time in various forms, but only in the past decade has become a real party which Scots see as fit to govern Scotland. What is best for Shetland is what Sheltand decides. I certainly don't think Scotland should decide what is best for Shetland, but Scotland would welcome continued close ties if Sheltanders wanted it. Either way, relations will inevitably be 'closer' with Scotland than the remainder of the UK on a daily basis given the proximity and mutual interests (shared NS industry/infrastructure, fishing, travel to and from the isles, tourism etc). This is of course assuming Scotland does become independent. While the choice is now in the hands of the Scots, it is not set in stone! Or Shetland could team up with Norway. I love the Norwegian system and would prefer a United Kingdom of Scotland, Shetland and Norway' over the current set-up! Now that would be something! Pity the beer is so expensive

With only 22,000 of you guys (less than half the capcity of Hampden), running a small referendum on 'where do we go next / should be set up a Shetland party' etc should not need government help. You could do it yourselves and see where it leads. Certainly, if Scotland goes independent, I imagine Westminster will look at holding onto Shetland. Likewise, the Scots will be making offers too. You will hold quite an ace given your current position in the heart of the north sea industry. Scottish people are finally 'getting up of their butts and doing something about it', Shetlanders should too. Go for the SNP (Shetland National Party). And thanks for all the responses so far. Very interesting learning people's views up there!

A fair point on both counts. If you guys consider the current scots MSPs in the same light (we scots don't as we voted them in under PR), then you need to set up a 'Sheltand' party which puts Shetland first. I'm not partial to all of Alex Slamonds policies or his golfing mates, but as a Scot, voting for a party which wants the best for where I live is a no brainer. EDIT. I'd be interested to know if the average Englishman or Norwegian could understand what you said as easily as a Scot.

Shetland voted 73% against in 1979 http://shetlopedia.com/1979_Devolution_Referendum No reason Sheltand should follow the Scots vote! @excisman: The UK only really became a democracy 200 years after Scotland Joined it, finally giving universal suffrage in 1928. My wife's grandmother remembers this, i.e. within living memory. With a new world war looming, Scotland did not focus on using 'democracy' to regain its independence but took the first opportunity 50 years later in 1979 to vote 'yes', which was rejected by westminster 'rule' never used in democracy, i.e. that not voting counts as a 'no'. Then it said yes at the next opportunity for devolution in 1997. Read into the recent 2011 result what you wish.

Hmm. I believe this is a discussion on what is best government-wise for Shetland, not Scotland, and I hope shetlanders don't mind me trying to learn more and put my perspective as and SNP mainland scot into the discussion. With respect to this, I think you need to remember that 'The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland (and Shetland?)' is not a country per se, but rather a collection of countries currently in parliamentary Union, each with varying degrees of indepedence with respect to languages, laws, customs, culture. Some of these countries were absorbed by England (e.g. Wales), though conquest, some 'voluntarily' (not really, as the scots people did not vote, the landowners did) such as Scotland joined the union. Some regions, like Shetland ended up as part of that Union due to the whims of the elite class without any real say in the matter. Scots rebelled against the union on a number of occasions and were brutally put down. They voted democratically in the 1970's for independence/devolution but were not given it. Scots now have a chance to be indepedent if they wish democratically for the first time (in that Westminster can't really stop it if the Scots vote for it). Time will tell if they do. Shetland now finds itself with an important question - does it remain with the UK or align with and independent Scotland should the latter come to fruition? I'm genuinely supportive of home rule for Sheltand, e.g. like the Isle of Man etc. Shetland needs that due to it's isolation. If that does happen, I would hope that Shetland decides to keep a good association with Scotland due to our close links, but that is up to Shetlanders to decide. As for the oil which always crops up? This is not about oil. While the north sea has good prospects for the next 20-30 years (I work in the industry), it can't form the backbone of either Scotland's or Shetland's economy. This is another thing we share in common and can solve with development of renewables together I hope. As for the war? So you are blaming a fictional independent Scotland in 1939 for losing a war that was never lost? Eh? How is that remotely relevant. @MuckleJoannie. Sorry if shetland has had to suffer some of our ever present 'parcel of rogues' which have blighted scotland through much of its history too. http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poems/translations/a_parcel_of_rogues_in_a_nation.htm

I am the first to admit a serious lack of knowledge - this is why I came here asking in the first place. I discovered that quite a few in Shetland were apparently aggrieved against Scotland and I had no idea why. Can you blame me? I imagine there are quite a few on here who are not experts on the history of Lauderdale (where I currently live), or the Spey Valley (where I grew up)? As far as clearances and serfdom goes - the Scotland did not escape these; it suffered greatly too under 'lairds' who cared little for the people of the Highlands and Islands. Scotland has been ruled by Westminster for the past 300 years, so any act carried out by 'Scotland' since 1707 with respect to Sheltand is one derived by Westminster or Unionists linked too westminster (e.g. Scottish Labour MPs) surely? Should the blame for the treatment of Shetland by Scotland not lie with the landowners/elite linked to london who did little for the people of Scotland too? Have you ever heard the term 'a parcel of rogues'? The bain of scotland and seems the same for Shetland too. And most importantly, why do people so often hark on about the past - it can't be changed but the future can. I would say that most Scots are unaware of any anti-scottish feeling that exists in Sheltand and I would not blame them. The scots have suffered under the same problem 'lairds' and have rebelled against control by the elite/westminster many times and voted for devolution/independence in the 70's only to have it refused on a non-demoncratic technicality. Personally, I am a 'non-aggrieved' Scottish Nationalist, i.e. not a 'moaner' nor a 'blamer' about past westminster rule/how England has treated Scotland historically. I regularly post on the politics thread of a forum I'm a member of in support of Scottish Independence, but am strongly against the 'moaning / anti-english' attitude of some hard line nationalists as much as I am against the 'anti-scottish' English people who post about how scotland 'can't survive without them' etc. Doesn't help at all. The only people who can improve Scotland's future are Scots that look to the future and do not dwell on the past. The same applies in Sheltand. If most Shetlanders want change, they can have it, but they're going to need to work together, just as the Scots have finally done in giving such strong support to the SNP. I would say Sheltand should not fear the SNP. I'm not saying shetlanders should vote for them nor by default be controlled by the Scottish Parliament, but the SNP are for the people of Scotland and the people of Scotland do not look down on Sheltand nor wish to control it. This is what saddened me when I read some posts which seemed to be 'anti-scottish'; I was horrified that some of my neighbours held grudges towards me and I had no idea where it stemmed from, if you like. I wanted to know why. I wish the best for shetland and would support what change sheltand voters wished for their future. Given what the SNP/Scots are currently fighting for, I see no reason why the same rights should not be given to the people of Shetland by the Scots Parliament, should Scotland become independent. If Scotland is to be reborn as a nation, I want it to be on good terms with our neighbours in the north (Iceland, Faroes, Shetland, Norway etc); I certainly feel my politics/culture as a highlander is closer to these than England. I have been to Orkney many times as I have distant family friends there. Maybe it's time I visited Sheltand to learn more about it; the Scots and The Shetlanders seem at least to have one thing in common - great pride in their homeland and the wish to not be controlled by another people from afar. And rightly so. Hope this clarifies my position. EDIT. Just read this - a good brief summary for an 'ignorant' Scot? http://www.saxavord.com/history-of-shetland.php Many of the problems described (serfdom, clearances) happened in the Highlands and islands of Scotland too. As for Robert Stewart - he is one person and does not represent the Scots. Scotland has suffered plenty of his Ilk (rich landowners and traders) too. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances "Crofters became a source of virtually free labour to their landlords, being forced to work long hours in such work as harvesting and processing of kelp" "What became known as the Clearances were considered by the landlords as necessary "improvements"..... Chiefs engaged Lowland, or sometimes English, factors with expertise in more profitable sheep farming, and they "encouraged", sometimes forcibly, the population to move off suitable land." I think Scotland and Shetland have a lot in common. Here's to a bright future for both!

That is what I figured many might want and I don't imagine Holyrood would try to stop that if Shetlanders wanted it. Certainly, I would be extremely angry and very let down if the Scots Parliament was not receptive in such a case. I truly believe they would not stand in the way, not the current SNP government anyway - the first goverment I find myself acutally respecting.

Having no link to Shetland (Orkney yes, but Shetland no) I hope you don’t mind me popping in to ask a few questions/raise a few points… I’ve always been aware that Shetlanders have great pride in their islands and have a strong sense of ‘nationalism’/individualism. Makes perfect sense to me given the location of the isles and its unique history. If you had asked me before reading around if Shetlanders would be pleased with an SNP (liberal, slightly left of centre party) victory in the Scottish elections, I would have guessed generally ‘yes/not a terrible result’ as the SNP are close to the liberal democrats in policy bar the independence issue. I would have also thought this would be supported by the fact that Shetland votes even less for the Tories than Scotland does – which is quite something! However, when I came across this forum, I found some posts apparently aggrieved against Scotland and I admit I’m perplexed/was not aware such feelings existed. While I understand Shetland was, from what I know, not treated well on occasion by Scotland in the past (e.g. late medieval period), I would have thought Shetlanders and Scots would feel the same about Westminster domination. Certainly, Shetland has not been ruled by Scotland for the past 300 years, but by London, just as Scotland has. I would not expect Shetlanders to automatically vote SNP, but I would have thought an independent Scotland would be better for you guys as immediately you would have more control of your own future/politics? Would be a lot easier to discuss with Holyrood what you wish than Westminster surely? As a Scot and a lifelong SNP voter, should Scotland become independent, I would be strongly supportive of Shetlanders getting more autonomy if they wish it. The location and history of Shetland means it will have different needs, politics etc from Scotland and you guys will know best what those are. Certainly, if Scotland does become independent, I would expect the Scots Government to seriously consider what Shetland wants as I would never wish Scotland to behave towards Shetland as Westminster does towards both Scotland and Shetland right now – i.e. with general apathy and disdain at best. Cheers, SS