derick

saw it on Iplayer. No Lesley is not in the SNP. Not sure if she supports Independence or not. Wallace was not good - Ian McWhirter was not the only one that noted his vacant response to the guy in the audience who described him as a 'relic'. Harsh but true. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/independence-part-1-how-scotland-has-changed.16607482 A free prescription in Sandwick is the same as a free prescription in Stirling. No tertiary education fees ditto. Indeed Shetland has it's own 'central belt' problem vis a vis Lerwick and surrounds, and the outlying areas. The answer incidentally being political parties in the SIC so the isolated outlying independent councillors are not divided and ruled. I canna see how the Highlands and Islands differ that much fae Shetland - similar geography, crofting, incompetent local authority, need for ferries (I see the Western Isles are making a fuss about withdrawal of RET for commercial vehicles - so much for Shetland being 'discriminated against' copyright whinging Fiberals). Shetland should make common cause with the Highlands and Islands, and should be making those links now. There is definite room for a 'northern bloc' in an Independent Scotland. Sorry for being so opinionated. Covenanting ancestors.

"And yet today it's possible to believe nationalism can mean something else entirely. It can ignore the false doctrine of "national characteristics" and focus instead on a shared culture; it can turn away from parochialism and forge international links with countries who share our values; it can give up once and for all the host of petty grievances we have held for too long against England and encourage us to take responsibility for our own lives." http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/herald-view/independence-or-not-scotland-has-moved-on.16610141

Coastguard - TUPE is logical but the infrastructure would become ours as it is physically located here. There's no 'hard and fast' rule for splitting assets but things which are physically located in one successor jurisdiction would be best transferred 100%, and the value offset elsewhere. So, for example, while Scotland's share of the House of Commons building which is a British physical asset built with taxes from all the UK is 8.4% based on population share we are hardly going to dismantle Big Ben and take it north - so HoC stays in London, and the value is offset elsewhere. British Museum stays in London and Scotland forgoes it's 8.4% share, National Museum of Scotland stays in Edinburgh and England forgoes it's 92.6% share. And so on. Overseas example would be the Czech republic which got the Czechoslovak embassy building in Washington, and the Slovak republic got the embassy in Ottowa. Transfer of personal taxation and PAYE is easy - little more than changing a box on a spreadsheet! No different really from changes to tax rates that happen after UK budgets. Corporate taxation is a little more complex, but multi-national companies are used to working across tax regimes. The 'problems' largely vanish into the mist when you look at them closely.

National debt in other 'divorces' have been split various ways. The closest parallel is the Czechoslovak split - debt was split on a population basis. OTOH the Baltic republics point blank refused to take any debt from the Soviet Union. And that stood. Scotland's ability to deal with the banks bailout of was discussed on Newsweek. http://joanmcalpine.typepad.com/joan_mcalpine/newsweek-scotland-interviews-professor-andrew-hughes-hallett-on-the-scottish-banks-bailout-full-tran.html http://joanmcalpine.typepad.com/joan_mcalpine/transcript-of-newsweek-scotland-yes-we-could-afford-the-baking-bailout.html and by John Kay (economist on the Council of Economic Advisers although he is a supporter of more devolution rather than independence. http://reformscotland.com/index.php/publications/details/1194 Lots of info on the Scottish Democratic Alliance Site. haven't read it all though! Agree with them on joining EFTA rather than the EU as the SNP tends towards. http://scottishdemocraticalliance.org/ The Full Fact site based in England also seems reasonably fair. Check the GDP figures for 'bankrupt' Iceland and Ireland compared to the UK! http://fullfact.org/factchecks/scotland_independence_salmond_economy-3239

That's a bit strong derick, whoever you're refering to. Aye. fair enough. Poorly chosen language. Apologies. However, Dratsy is still no going ta convince me that DNA testing is a legitimate basis for a franchise, or that British Unionists have a right to partition Scotland. They don't so the tosh in the Tory press is just another scare story. All this nonsense was supposed to happen if the SP was reconvened - death of the firstborn, plagues of mice, Tartan Tories, Scottish Marxist hell, Michelle Mone to leave (a promise sadly not kept) etc etc ad nauseum. It's tiresome. anyway, awey to pit me tailgate lock on.

charmed darling.

Would an alternative be to become a Scottish Crown Dependency? Presumably there would then be no need to tackle the business of seabed ownership immediately and it could be settled by negotiation? It seems odd that enclave status as shown on Mahdi Zahraa's map (Shetland as a remainder of UK Crown Dependancy)would mean a foreign country (Scotland) owning seabed over 100 miles north of Unst. I note that Mahdi Zahraa is a constitutional lawyer based at Glasgow Caledonian University and I can't help a suspicion that academic opinion that comes out in support of a Scottish case for seabed ownership is as likely to be partisan as some of the opinion being brought out at the moment to support the various assertions of UK unionists. It's worrying that the more this notion of remaining with with the remainder of the UK post independence gets bandied about in the sooth papers the more defensive pro-independence spokespeople become about the future status of Shetland. I see Rod Gibson's (SNP MP for Sutherland and Ross I think) response to the Duck of Caithness was to emphasise that Shetland is just as Scottish as Dingwall or Thurso, or words to that effect. Maybe constitutionally true, but not truth as we know it - if that makes sense. The more the idea of staying with the rest of the UK is floated about by unionist spokespeople for their own ends - i.e. in order to undermine the SNP's economic case - the more resolved the Scottish government is likely to be in making sure Shetland never has more power of self-determination than any other local authority. The problem is as much in hanging on to powers that we now have as it is in gaining new ones. Scottish Crown Dependency? Maybe. Interesting idea and possible compromise that would give Shetland people max self-determination, but avoids Carsonite Partition, Scottish reaction(ferry to Newcastle; endless legal disputes re EEZ (and to be blunt: War). I genuinely think Shetland is more attuned to mainland Scotland socially, than to southern England. and could be a bridge ta Scandinavia. Fake Viking racists may disagree. F** em.

Umm.Errr. Carry on as a coonty o Scotland. as it is eenou, except hopfully fok will stop da cringing ta authority (Lerweeck - a faur awey plece of whit we keen little and care a VERY MUCH LESS), stop da craimin an actually exercise personal an community self-determination. AND punch 'abuin it's weight' ida counsels o Scotland

Never going ta convince dee so not relevant. da key point is 'depriving area X of it's resources'. Crown Dependency Stuart Hill nonsense fur Shetland is clearly a UK ploy to deprive Scotland of an integral part of it's territory. I am confident that this is the position that international arbitration would arrive at. So, either Shetland has the existing EEZ as part of Scotland, or it has enclave status with a 12 NM EEZ as a crown dependency of England (The UK being dissolved in the event of Scottish Independence).

I'm real!

I see. So presumably an independent Scotland would be subject to the same "enclave" 12 miles around the coast (of Scotland)? No - because as Scotland is not an 'isolated offshore island' then current equidistant boundaries would apply, although no doubt there will need to be negotiation and possible arbitration regarding the maritime boundary off Berwick as this was secretly changed in 1999 (actyually I think the correct boundary there should be somewhere betweenthe original easterly boundary and the 1999 one that was moved 70 miles north). Others with rather more experience of these matters disagree http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/01/scotlandengland-maritime-boundaries/

What relevance does area have, anyway? The relevance is that Shetland's 'Crown Dependency' EEZ would be calculated from the boundaries, and that is related to size, and particularly size relative to the original country of which Shetland is a county. That's the international precedent.

As the 2 examples above are entirely different politicly and legally I fail to see how they can both result in the same settlement of borders. An independent Orkney and Shetland would be entitled to the same rules on borders as any other independent state. An Orkney and Shetland that is a crown dependency of the UK would be entitled to the same territorial limits as the Faroes (a crown dependency of Denmark) 200 miles or the median line. After all why look to the other side of the ocean or even the planet when there is an internationally recognised example a mere matter of a few miles away. The international precedent is highly relevant as that is the basis that any abitration would proceed. Given that an Independent Shetland is a non starter, the substantifve real issue is the proposed Partition of Scotland using Crown Dependency or other nonsense. Faeroe is a different situation as it was part of Denmark when the boundaries were drawn up

OK re acreage. doesn't invalidate the point on 'isolated offshore island' how do they do it? Tax haven for very wealthy individuals, handy for the fleshpots of London AND BETTER WEATHER!

well pete with a 200mile/median line sea border for Shetland and I'll pay it out my pension Sorry to disappoint but using international precedent, independent Shetland's territorial waters would be a enclaved at approx 24 miles oot. see discussion fae page 24 on and map page 29 http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf . And all that theory is applied to us joining with England and apart fae a few english I've no heard anyone in Shetland suggest that is the way we should go, but I'm heard a fair few scoties use the "whit you'd rather be English" bollox at every mention of no wanting anything to do with an independent Scotland. Yourself being a prime example. Are you so brainwashed by fat eck that you think we are less able or less deserving of self determination than the scoty. scoty? Weel boy, as I go back at laest 10 generations in Yell, so I'm a pureblood, according ta da racial purity experts on here! The Falkland Islands are 1 a substantial landmass - 4700 sq miles 2 out in the open ocean 300 miles from the nearest continent 3 were uninhabited before British settlement hence the territorial waters are set using the equidistance principle towards Argentina, and 200miles on all other sides Orkney and Shetland are 1 relatively small islands - Shetland is what, 350 sq miles in area 2 close to the neighbouring landmass - 14 miles from Hoy to Cattaness 3 have a 5000 year history of association with Scotland 4 are consitutionally, part of Scotland, governed by Scots Law (incidentally why does the place insist in voting for Edinburgh Lawyers in the form of Scott, Carmichael and previously Wallace??), part of the Scottish education system (which is why Shetland students don't have to pay £9000 fees), part of the Scottish NHS (which is why it's not being privatised and won't be. Ever) Therefore - the current situation or situation on Scottish Independence is that the territorial waters, based on Shetland being a part of Scotland, is that the equidistance principle applies west to Faroe and east to Norway, and the 200mile limit applies to the open ocean northwards. If Shetland or Shetland/Orkney were to become Independent, or a Crown Dependency of England, it will then become an 'isolated offshore island' and the territorial waters would be defined to the south using the equidistance principle, either between Fair Isle and North Ronaldsay, or between Hoy and Stroma, depending on whether we are talking about Shetland or Shetland/Orkney, and around all other boundaries using the enclave method - approx 20 miles from each island, ness and bordering holm. As per map on the previous link. Yes of course it would be subject to international arbitration, but that is the precedent. I think this is how it works round the Channel Isles - they are 'isolated offshore islands' relative to the rest of England. Do not be fooled by the 'Frank Frazer' map fae the 1970s as that was just British Intelligence propaganda - and did not take account of international law. Good to debate on substantive issues at last I was once tempted by the Shetland Movement in my misguided youth but have come to see that the 'Shetland is not Scottish' political stance is just a British divide and rule ploy not unlike the Carsonite tosh in Ireland 100 years ago. As one poster noted above, it's the inclusion of Rockall that is the give away this time round. The Noble Lords clearly have a deep concern for the political rights of the Rockall islanders (100 scarfs) And the point about the funny handshake brigade is not just being smart, it's a definite and major reason for my reservations about Shetland Independence/Crown Dependency. Shetland's governance at present is an embarrasing shambles - maybe this would improve on self-government. maybe not. Not even slightly brainwashed by Eck! But he does indeed need to eat less pies. I resigned fae SNP in 2003 due ta John Swinney's insufficient oppostion ta Iraq war. And also was at a selection meeting for Annabel Ewing in Callander at wis so boring I nearly died. Rejoined couple years later as the underlying problem of UK total underperformance on every international indicator, and total unreformability, remains unsolved. Google GDP per head, UN human development index for UK, Norway, Iceland, Ireland, Finland, Denmark, Sweden. And see the excellent dissection of 'Britishness' in 'The Enchanted Glass: Britain and it's Monarchy' by Tom Nairn. Cheers

well pete with a 200mile/median line sea border for Shetland and I'll pay it out my pension Sorry to disappoint but using international precedent, independent Shetland's territorial waters would be a enclaved at approx 24 miles oot. see discussion fae page 24 on and map page 29 http://www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf PS, anyway, ida event of the promised land of an ethnically pure independent Shetland/ForGodsakeVik/Dratsyland soothmoother free zone (or Partition and Shetland bizarrely becoming part of Torie England) the masons would have all the cash and du wid get none IMHO.

But then again, Dirty Tricks appear right on cue. Again. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/297169 http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/4162-first-widely-predicted-scottish-extremist-story-appears-in-scottish-press

Excellent! Fears Westminster Could Fall Into The Thames http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16154164

Er...dey wid say dat!!

Better a positive ideal than no ideals. The demand for total clarity on every aspect of independence seem mostly to be a tool to create an impression of fear. Not saying du is doing dat, but dat is how it's used by da unionist fraternity No nation on earth that gained it's independence could provide a detailed 30 year business plan in advance. e.g. Norway couldn't have done in 1904 so setting such a bar would mean it would still be in union with Sweden. I could ask: What are the economic benefits of the UK continuing? Don't look that rosy to me - a chronically structurally imbalanced economy with far too much emphasis on financial speculation and not enough on actual productive work. We can see that at present Scotland at least pays it's way in the UK - the hysteria coming out of unionist sources since the New Year suggests the balance of payments is more positive than we think. And then there is the repatriation of current subsidies to the rest of the UK - e.g. as the Sunday Herald pointed out we will pay £1bn for the Olympics but the return to Scotland is £1m. Ditto the BBC spend, and above all the military spend - Scotland contributed £5.6billion more to the UK military budget than was spent here during 1997-2007. Consider what £5billion pounds could do, spent constructively. Shetland has a housing crisis, does it not? Which is not to say I agree with all of current Scottish Government Housing policy! Good in parts Pegging the currency to the pound (as Australia and Ireland did, and as Hong Kong does with the US dollar) is a smart move. Not least to eliminate the risk of the City of London attacking the currency in spite. Given the 40-50 years of oil revenue remaining, a move to a completely separate currency early on does run the risk of it being too 'hard' (as Mcrone suggested) so gently does it. Then again - A Salmond, former economist, G Osborne, former hotel towel folder and cocaine user. A easy choice. On every forum you can find there are people asking for a positive case for the Union. ssssss......tumbleweeds. T

Da sam wey as it'll benefit every idder coonty in Scotland by promoting an independent social democratic country, but more so, that looks ta Scandinavia as an example, but not a template And quite unlaek da ConDem free market wasteland o rabid dogs wi da poor beneath der feet, rapidly developing ida UK.

Do you know this for a fact, or just indulging in paranoid fantasies? nah - he's joost takkin da p*** oota da Fake Vikings. No dat hard it can be said! More constructively and ignoring da Tory Unionist Viking tosh - whit do you aa think wid be Shetland's contribution ta biggin an Independent Scotland? When and if it happens.

Weel I'm ida SNP and I'm no apathetic aboot Shetland. Dunna confuse Fiberal sniping ida Times wi actual true facts.

Completely wrong on every point.

maybe, but Shetland is a bigger part, proportionately, geographically and economically of Scotland than it is of the UK, or even rUK. Hence more clout. Might have to stop voting for the whinging Fiberals who have nothing positive to say about anything ever though