Shetland.........A Hydrogen Economy

[greenheatman]

It will be a long time before any inconnector is built to the Scottish mainland. Shetland should be looking at all the options and one of these is making hydrogen by renewable energy resources.

 

I think that PURE is a bit of a dead duck and new methods on making hydrogen should be explored like blasting high pressure steam into kelp for example.

 

Bluemull Sound's tidal stream could be used as the energy source to heat water to raise the steam required.

 

The hydrogen could then be piped to Gremista as an alternative to burning oil.

[Evil Inky]

The hydrogen could then be piped to Gremista as an alternative to burning oil.

Do we pump burning oil to Gremista at the moment ?

[greenheatman]

sorry, that should have read 'instead of burning diesel oil in internal combustion engines, which in turn drive generator shafts to make electricity' but most people would realise what I meant!

[hairyian]

Bluemull Sound's tidal stream could be used as the energy source to heat water to raise the steam required.

 

The hydrogen could then be piped to Gremista as an alternative to burning oil.

 

Is this some kind of contest to design the most inefficient energy transfer system?

 

Huge losses converting electricty to Hydrogen

Huge costs building and running a gas pipeline to Gremista.

Huge losses by using an internal combustion engine to convert Hydrogen to electricity.

 

Why not just feed the electricty straight into the Shetland electricty system at source? Few bits more copper needed, but much cheaper than a pipeline and an enormouse saving on conversion losses.

[greenheatman]

Huge losses converting electricty to Hydrogen

 

Where did I say that? Erroneous assumption #1

 

Huge costs building and running a gas pipeline to Gremista

 

Erroneous assumption #2

 

One off construction costs - so what, a lot cheaper than building a interconnector to the Scottish mainland?

 

Huge losses by using an internal combustion engine to convert Hydrogen to electricity.

 

Sorry, didn't suggest that either!

 

So that is three erroneous assumptions made to what end?

 

You will be amazed to learn that all these marine current turbines are designed to work at their maximum efficiency during Neap tides> Let's assume a Neap tide of 4knots and a Spring tide of 8knots in Bluemull. This ridiculous line of thinking means that around 7/8 of the available shaft power is discarded during Spring tides because, wait for it, it is way too much power than their puny generator needs or can handle. You were right if this dribble of electricity was used to make hydrogen but that was not what I said - remember the bit about steam, kelp?

 

I am sorry, but as a fully paid up member of the SHFCA, I have, myself, been guilty of making an erroneous assumption, that you may have heard of Hydrogen Fuel Cells!

[Fjool]

Ah but, hairyian, you may not be aware that GreenHeatMan has devised a system which can produce seemingly limitless* quantities of energy in the form of heat (steam) - the problem appears to be what to do with the heat after that. Turning it into electricity would loose a lot of energy but it does make it more readily transportable, I guess. Why we need hydrogen particularly... not sure; perhaps as fuel for vehicles, central heating systems... maybe?

 

I'm intrigued by the idea that hydrogen can be produced by blasting kelp with steam... sounds unusual.

 

*Not really sure about this as I'm far too stupid to even begin to possibly comprehend the genius of the system, apparently.

[hairyian]

 

much power than their puny generator needs or can handle. You were right if this dribble of electricity was used to make hydrogen but that was not what I said - remember the bit about steam, kelp?

 

Sorry, I was erroneously thinking you had a workable solution.

 

I am sorry, but as a fully paid up member of the SHFCA, I have, myself, been guilty of making an erroneous assumption, that you may have heard of Hydrogen Fuel Cells!

 

Sorry, I was erroneously thinking you had a workable, but daft, solution.

 

I will concede that the most stupid of ideas do sometimes end up working.

Wake me up in 30 years and tell me how it works out!

 

Ah ye olde fuel cell ... this 50 year old technology is often touted as 'new'.

Better than it was in the beginning, but not quite there yet.

 

Are you aware that there is more to operating a fuel cell than pumping Hydrogen into it?

[hairyian]

) - the problem appears to be what to do with the heat after that. Turning it into electricity would loose a lot of energy but it does make it more readily transportable, I guess. Why we need hydrogen particularly... not sure; perhaps as fuel for vehicles, central heating systems... maybe?

 

As current conventional petrol/deisel gets harder to produce and more expensive, Hydrogen, in some form, seems most suited, to vehicle use.

Central heating would be best sourced from electricity as the energy is easier to transport in that form. This does assume your boiler is not mobile .

[greenheatman]

Hydrogen from kelp?.......not that intriguing!

 

 

http://www.need.org/needpdf/infobook_activities/SecInfo/NGasS.pdf

[greenheatman]

Ah but, hairyian, you may not be aware that GreenHeatMan has devised a system which can produce seemingly limitless* quantities of energy in the form of heat (steam) - the problem appears to be what to do with the heat after that. Turning it into electricity would loose a lot of energy but it does make it more readily transportable, I guess. Why we need hydrogen particularly... not sure; perhaps as fuel for vehicles, central heating systems... maybe?

 

If this was 'Just a minute' I would be buzzing in for "deviation". However, since you brought the subject up a will clarify a few things for you. My system will of course store limitless power in terms of MWh(thermal) for the simple reason that my energy source is infinite (limitless) also. Clearly, when the tide stops flowing all of us living on planet Earth will have more to worry about than having no electricity.

 

There is clearly no problem converting a store of hot water to electricity. They do not have a problem doing exactly that with every thermal generating plant in the world or indeed every geothermal plant in the world too!

 

Maybe it is me, but this is blindingly obvious stuff, so I am at a loss to understand why water heated by tidal stream will in some way not respond in the same way in the thermal generating process as water heated by fossil fuels or radiactive decay in the bowels of the earth!

 

Turning heat into electricity does lose around 65% in any industrial generating process using conventional steam turbines - all are subject to the Laws of Thermodynamics - including Gentec venturi. That being said, I am currently developing a 'shaftless' generator that can convert low grade 'wet' steam directly to HVDC for transmission. This conversion process will be in the order of 70% to 80% efficient.

 

To get back on track. I proposed using almost all the available power in Bluemull Sound to heat water to make steam. There is no intermediate conversions in this stage. It would be helpful if posters did not invent any!

The the steam blasted kelp gives off a fuel, hydrogen, to run modified diesel generators Gremista instead of diesel.

 

Yes, and surplus hydrogen could be used to run cars and lorries too.

[Evil Inky]

Maybe it is me, but this is blindingly obvious stuff, so I am at a loss to understand why water heated by tidal stream will in some way not respond in the same way in the thermal generating process as water heated by fossil fuels or radiactive decay in the bowels of the earth!

Burning fossil fuels, or radioactive decay, produce heat which can be used to heat water. A tidal stream can make things ( eg a turbine ) move, but it doesn't produce heat without an additional process.

[ArabiaTerra]

The the steam blasted kelp gives off a fuel, hydrogen, to run modified diesel generators Gremista instead of diesel.

 

I had a look at your link, greenheatman, and it seems you can get hydrogen from seaweed by blasting it with steam, but you also get CO2, which means it's not green heat.

[greenheatman]

Burning fossil fuels, or radioactive decay, produce heat which can be used to heat water. A tidal stream can make things ( eg a turbine ) move, but it doesn't produce heat without an additional process.

 

Yes indeed, this moving turbine can be made to put almost all of the power under the graph into (heat) storage. It is from this constantly replenishing thermal accumulator that power is generated in the same way as fossil and geothermal operations.

 

I had a look at your link, greenheatman, and it seems you can get hydrogen from seaweed by blasting it with steam, but you also get CO2, which means it's not green heat.

 

.............only if you allow it to escape to atmosphere, it can be stored or sequestrated

[DavidThomson]

There will be a talk in the Shetland Museum and Archives on Friday night (5th October) presenting three speakers, one of whom is Ross Gazey of PURE Energy Centre.

 

Denis Pinto, Chairman of the Energy Institute (Aberdeen Highlands and Islands Branch) is travelling to Shetland to attend the Careers Convention on Thursday night. Denis wanted to arrange an event during his visit and Shetland Renewable Energy Forum has helped facilitate a public talk.

 

It is a free event open to everyone and there should be a buffet starting at 18.00pm while everyone arrives. The presentations will start at 18.30pm.

 

Ross Gazey is going to speak about how the PURE Energy Centre has been progressing and will be able to discuss and explain the many positive news stories coming from Unst recently. I am sure he will be able to discuss Shetland's considerable potential to lead the development of any hydrogen economy.

 

I’m giving an version of a presentation given during the recent Energy At The Edge Symposium about setting up large scale energy projects in remote regions.

 

Denis will then speak about the Energy Institute and it is likely that the evening will end with a chance for general questions.

The event should be finished before 20.30pm

 

The talk would be relevant to anyone interested in energy matters, and renewable energy in particular.

Perhaps we might see some of you there.

Best regards

David Thomson

[greenheatman]

I think that you will find that there is a big difference between Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide!

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article522203.ece