Mistymaud

Just thought of a specific instance with regard to confidentiality. A couple of years ago a woman I know went berserk because her husband had gone to the doctor and the doctor had starting telling the husband all about the woman's medical condition. Shame she hadn't told him first. All hell broke loose.
Breach of patient confidentiality - even to a husband.

Cheers guys!

Unfortunately many people who have this illness have excellent diets - and if you look at the volume of b12 via meat that you would need to eat to rectify (not prevent) a deficiency Murphy and Minot's research in the 1920s showed it took about 1/2lb of raw liver per day. Most people don't have a diet like this.
If you look at hypochlorydria, that also limits the absorption of such things as calcium and iron as well as b12.
I think it does prove though how important diet is and how much more we need to learn about what we put in it and how everything functions.

I think there might be a bit of confusion here. I was responding to what you put,
"
Hi,
 
I suppose for preventive measures obtaining B12 naturally from food would always be best and preferred option, the problem of this is eating right food rich in B12 in sufficient amounts"
 
and pointing out that although this would be the preferred option most people can't eat the required amounts if trying to overcome or prevent a deficiency if a malabsorption condition is present.
 
So I think that essentially, we are in agreement?
 
I would never recommend any particular supplement or type of nutrient to add to a diet, simply because I don't know how any one individual has been affected. One man's meat can be another man's poison.
 
With b12 we know that there is a list of symptoms that indicate a deficiency. We know that it's not toxic. We also know that although b12 and folic acid work together synergistically, having a deficiency in b12 does not necessarily mean you will have a deficiency in folic acid. Some people do and some don't - does that mean everyone with a b12 deficiency should take additional folic acid?

That's a good question - and it leads down so many roads it's incredible.
 
Hmm.
 
Maybe it depends on what your expectations are and how far you are willing to take charge of your own health?
 
Okay.
In my own case I couldn't have done anything differently regarding prevention or treatment up until the point my diagnosis was revealled. I couldn't have eaten a better diet, I had no knowledge whatsoever of the illness or it's true symptoms, I had no knowledge up to the point of diagnosis on how to treat it correctly.
 
Now, you can make informed choices and if I had had the information given to me, say 5 years ago, that I've provided now, what happened to me, wouldn't have happened.
Knowledge is power.
 
So, make sure you are well acquainted with all the symptoms - I think I put the interactive symptom checker up here. Don't discount minor stuff. Don't put anything down to age etc.
if you are concerned, go to your doctor and see what reaction you get.
If it's a positive informed reaction then you are on a roll.
 
 
One of the main causes of b12 deficiency is low or no stomach acid - this is called hypochlorhydria or achlorhydria - you can get tests done privately for this. Low stomach acid, although more prevelant as you get older, can and does happen in younger people. If you have low stomach acid, then you won't be able to absorb nutrients properly. So in that instance you could make the decision to take preventative measures by supplementing with one of the high dose lozenges or tablets prior to getting any symptoms.
 
What you have to remember is, that dependent on when you take the supplements, if you have a subsequent blood test, it will most likley be normal.
 
If you watch the film, when it comes to the elderly, they clearly state that they think everybody should be tested and supplemented.
 
If you want to take it to the other end of the scale - anybody can go out and buy a supplement at any given moment in time. As long as people are aware that supplementation can affect test results which currently doctors rely on for a diagnosis then prevention is better than cure?

Hi,
 
I'm guessing like iron your Hb only tells you what is flowing around the body at that given time. It's your Ferritin levels that tells you exactly what iron reserves you have and if you were truly anaemic you want your Ferritin levels checked and MCV  (mean cell volume )
rather than  just  it which can vary even throughout the day.
 
So like B12 what flowing around your body from simple blood test if a patient is truly deficient and has been supplementing it can still mask results.
 
Most of us like to think we have pretty good diet I eat a lot of raw fruit and veg as well as meat as well as some cooked veg but I eat more raw vegtables as part of a balanced diet I would have no idea still if I was deficient in B12.
 
B12 deficiency can sneak up on you,  and you can be pretty low on it before some people start to notice symptoms, by the time you do you you need more than just overcounter B12 and you need accurate blood testing before any supplements are given so results are not masked in any way.
 
Given that B12 will only work with other B vitamins and Folic acid deficient in one of the other B vitamins/ folic acid could also lead to B12 deficiency.
 
It would be interesting to test example Shetland population for B12  and see the results never happen obviously, but I'm betting there is quite a lot us unaware that our B12 are not what they should be whether we are experiencing symptoms or not.
 
 
What would be sensible would be to test for B12 during certain times during our lives teenagers , pregnant women , anyone with malabsorption issues, elderly  etc

Hi,
 
well we hope at least some of our medical profession will read at least some of the info we can but hope, when I started the One world birth thread and putting info for mothers out there to start to ask questions  on eg options/choices in pregnancy ,birth and beyond which some mothers were clearly being denied or bullied into other choices, it did get people talking as to what is going on in our maternity services, and where to find up to date information if they feel they were being fobbed off etc.with relevant organisations and where to get outside help.
It also raised awareness of conflict of interest role held in a management position.
 
The more people discuss, talk about the subject raise questions of the subject and don't be allowed to be fobbed off and be provided research that's up to date and evidence the better. This is what starts to drive standards up and starts changes.
 
We could be banging our heads on a brick wall, but you never know just someone here in medical profession may just do some reading and start to ask questions on behalf of patients but then again I won't hold by breath .
 
Excellent post in raising awarenss of B12 so at least people can be aware themselves of the problems of getting a diagnosis and what likely they are likely to expect with regards testing etc which could affect any of us at anytime lets not be ignorant thinking I've got no symptoms so by B12 will be fine we should all be informed.
 
Sometimes there is still an old attitude i'm the doctor your the patient, you do as you are told and don't question so some people do put and shut up.
Very hard to overcome especially perhaps with some elderly and younger people who may find harder to question authority in a certain position.

I still love Marmite on toast!   
 
But I take onboard what you have written and appreciate the instruction.

interesting video will get the wife to watch it

It is now known that b12 deficiency could affect 1/3rd of the population. It has been known for nearly 200 years that this illness ultimately causes death, but prior causes psychiatric problems, paralysis, dementia, vision issues and a plethora of other neurological problems. Hardly surprising since b12 is necessary for the production of myelin which protects nerves and brains.
Unfortunately, in modern society, most medical professions treat b12 deficiency as something trival - the knowledge of it is lost.
 
In Scotland there are no medical guidelines for treating this illness - indeed, even if you present with typical symptoms it's rare you will be tested for it. Even if you are, and you are deficient, on many occasions patients are only given treatment suitable for vegans.
This treatment will raise b12 levels in the blood and the doctor will pronounce you treated - but it only raises levels in the blood, it does nothing to stop or repair the damage at cellular level.
 
If you know someone who has emotional issues, for example seems very anxious, or someone who has dementia, or someone who has MS, or someone who has a child with autism - then these could in fact be b12 deficiency. Yet it is highly unlikely the patients have even heard mention of it. Their doctors will not even give it serious consideration.
 
I'm including a link to a documentary video quite recently released on Youtube and I hope I'm not contravening any rules. This video gives 4 examples of patients who were close to death before the cause was revealed to be b12 deficiency. It includes a doctor - complete in his diaper with his feeding tube - he's a brave man to come out and say he was ignorant of the cause too.
 
Try and forget everything you thought you knew about b12 and remember that in Scotland there are no guidelines for treating this illness. It's not considered important enough.

 
 
 
 
 

By 'eck - you're quick on the uptake, aren't you!!!!
 
I'm impressed!!!!!
 
My main concern regarding MS is a common-sense one.
We have 100s of MS specialists - we have NO B12 specialist. None. In the UK.
How can someone be a specialist in one disease that produces exactly the same symptoms as another disease, without knowing anything about the 2nd disease. You cannot diagnose one until you rule out the other. Yes, there must be many, many cases of misdiagnosed MS.
 
Personally I believe there are also links between Vit d def and b12. This is down to personal research and nothing else, so I'm not really going there. What I will say is, if you are low on vit d, have your b12 checked as well.
 
The problem with testing is that if you supplement even minute amounts, the serum b12 will return to normal. And by supplement, that can mean eating a small piece of liver each day.
 
Two things that I've learned from the historical research:
1) Blood test results are not a diagnosis of b12 deficiency, they are purely one of the symptoms and the easiest to rectify.
2) Once treatment commences (by supplementation or whatever) all bloods return to normal.
This does not mean the patient is 'cured' it means one of the symptoms has been resolved. You can still be dying.
 
 
Your medical professionals do know - at least at higher levels and your government knows.