Scottish National Party in the 2007 election

[Mutton]

Even if Scotland doesn't have a chance of independence, this elections will be a disaster for Scotland. Rather than a four year term of seeking to improve education, health and transport, it will be a four year debate on Union and other constitutional considerations. The Scottish Parliament, an astonishing £500M to run every year, will further waste our money.

 

Bring back the good old days of when we just had two layers of government, MPs and MEPs!

[Mutton]

We need a new left of centre party or stronger independent Liberal party to bring back the balance

 

Just in relation to that comment, I have to say I've had enough of the huge increase in the tax burden under Labour. The stealth taxes brought in by New Labour show that deep down they are still the big government high tax party but with a spin ie they do it indirectly so that people won't notice.

[derick]

A lot of heat and some abuse here on the subject of the SNP

but not much light

 

Hey guys and guyettes, try a little light.

 

http://www.snp.org/policies

 

http://www.snp.org/policies/government-communities/the-first-100-days-of-an-snp-government

 

Question 1 - Lerwick gets its watter fae?

a)Sandvatn

b)Sandy Lake

c)Sandy Loch

 

Question 2 - 'loch' is derived fae which language?

a) Norn

English

c) Gaelic (assimilated inta lowland Scots)

[AndDenWeMadeTea]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6263977.stm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

 

I accept that the SNP are a credible party in their own right, but perhaps we should just think about the 'light' which they was to estinguish: a partnership that has served both Scotland and England well over 300 years.

 

Ok, there has been a lot of ill tough times (like in any marriage or partnership) from it. But, if you take into account economic/political/social development - it has been for the better of our country over this time. We would be a very different country today if we had not been part of it. Ok, Ireland flourished after the breaking free of the British Empire, but her relationship to England is very different to Scotland. We are but the other side of the same coin. Think of Robbie Burns; Walter Scott; Graham Bell; David Livingstone; Billy Connolly - all great, independent minded Scots that flourish whilst we were in the Union.

 

To break it, it a step into the past, a step backwards, and a jump into narrow inward thinking. (whatever the SNP may say to the contorary). I agree though that the danger is that the English may now get sick of the Scottish labour clique, and our continual moaning and inferiority complext, and say good riddence to us. This inferiority compex has not always been there. I agree that Thatcher did a lot to install this anti English/inferiority complex. But....lets not forget that in the 1950s, the Scottish populatoin voted overhwelmingly Conservative and Unionist (the only party ever to gain a majority in Scotland of popular vote)

 

Interesting but worrying times.......

[derick]

Ireland, Norway, Iceland, Demark,Finland. All Independent, all flourishing. All smaller than Scotland, all with fewer natural resources, all at the top of every quality of life indicator you care to mention.

 

None engaged in illegal wars of conquest on the other side of the world or about to waste squillions on nuclear bombs.

None with MRSA in their hospitals (the Norwegians hadn't even heard of it)

None building houses which people can't afford to heat

 

I have been asking for months on the Scotsman's forums for one of the Unionist contributers there to provide a positive case for the Union. No luck so far- all they have come up with so far are either ridiculous scares and smears which insult the intelligence, or a sort of sentimental rose tinted view of the past when the map was pink etc.

 

The SNP are more interested in the future than the past. All I can ask is that people follow the link and read the ethos, the policies etc on the SNP website and give us a fair hearing.

 

Incidentally, it has come to light that the GERS report allocates the Entire Cost of Trident as 'Scottish Public Spending' tut tut.

[AndDenWeMadeTea]

Derick,

 

Firstly, if you withdrew your pledge to take Scotland out of the Union then I might consider voting for you. Your merits as a modern political force are not in question here. (although some of your other polices (ie Trident) I do not agree with) My criticism of the Unionist argument - and namely the Conservatives who should hang their heads in shame - is the the Unionist argument has not been modern enough!! But, there is one to be made. Just look at how Bavaria works within Germany.

 

Derick.... my belief as a Shetlander and SCOTSMAN in the Union of the United Kingdom is NON negiotiable. You have got to respect that surely - and that of the majority of Scots given the polls who actually do not favour independence.

 

I would argue that Scotland is an independent, flourishing nation - like the ones that you mention. (and this is whilst being part of the 'shackles' of the Union).

 

Secondly, I don't trust your leaderships intentions nor like their personalities! I would not say having a belief in the Union as having a 'rose tinted' view of the past. I see it as having a pride in my country and my nation. If anyone is responsible for scare stories, it is surely Alex Salmond who I really do belief is the most opportunist politician since Adolf Hitler!!

 

Like Bavaria is a strong independent, individual part of a modern Germany, so to should Scotland continue be an independent part of a strong United Kingdrom.

[Mutton]

The SNP lost all respect when they said not only would they stop the student charge at graduation, but they would cancel all student debt and bring back the student grant! That is a rediculous thing to say when Scottish Universities are falling behind our competitors around the world who charge tuition fees and is totally unaffordable.

 

Scotland right now has a great position. Scots run the British government thereby having world influence and Scottish MPs can even set laws for England without any accountability, it's crazy when you think about this. Yet the SNP want to waste four years over consitutional wrangling rather than improve standard of living. If you think replacing trident is expensive, try indepdendence!

[islandhopper]

Like Bavaria is a strong independent, individual part of a modern Germany ...

 

Correction:

Bavaria is a strong part in the Federal Republic of Germany, that's absolutely right!

But as far as "independence" is concerned it's position within the Federal Republic is much weaker than is the actual position of Scotland within the Union ... and with regard to other members of the federation Bavaria is not more independent or more individual than all the other federal states are.

[AndDenWeMadeTea]

Having travelled around Germany extensively myself, and having some understanding of German history, Bavaria does have more indepedence in terms of identity than other parts of Germany.

 

I know for a fact that the culture is different there, and generally the relationship between it and other parts of the north is - in some quarters - 'strained'. This stems historically from the whole unification of Germany, an of course the Prussian dominance.

 

In terms of identity and culture, Bavaria IS more indepenent.

[islandhopper]

I don't want to stress it too much in a Shetland forum but as a German, living in the north (Hamburg) I can confirm that some of my neighbours do think that the Balkans start south of the river Danube ...

That's some kind of kiddish mocking but no real proof for more independence in terms of identity or culture neither north nor south of the Danube

What's the truth in it is the fact that the image about Germany abroad is widely influenced if not dominated by "leathern trousers and Bavarian beer" as is the image of Scotland as a whole dominated by "kilt & whisky" ...

[derick]

Derick,

Firstly, if you withdrew your pledge to take Scotland out of the Union then I might consider voting for you.

 

Takkin Scotland oot oda Unions is da purpose oda SNP - so I doot it wid be kinda hard fur wis ta withdraw dat een

 

Derick.... my belief as a Shetlander and SCOTSMAN in the Union of the United Kingdom is NON negiotiable. You have got to respect that surely - and that of the majority of Scots given the polls who actually do not favour independence. .

 

Weel, while respectin your views 100%, we ir entitled ta try an persuade you ta convert tae a different view! Independence will come whin da majority votes fur it, not a meenit shuner. Which is no ta say we canna tak peerie steps ida right direction - dey ir a clear majority support eenoo fur mair pooers fur da existin devolved parliament. Even da Tories tinks dats needed.

 

I would argue that Scotland is an independent, flourishing nation - like the ones that you mention. (and this is whilst being part of the 'shackles' of the Union).

 

As part o UK Scotland does OKish, but could do so very much better.

for example:

 

UN Human Development Index (rankings out of top 30)

Scotland - no figure. UK 0.940 ranked No 17

Iceland 0.960 ranked No 2

Norway 0.965 ranked No 1

Denmark 0.943 ranked No 15

Ireland 0.956 ranked No 4

 

Economist Quality of Life Index 2005 (rankings all states)

Scotland - no figure. UK 6.917 ranked No 29

Iceland 7.911 ranked No 7

Norway 8.051 ranked No 3

Denmark 7.796 ranked No 9

Ireland 8.333 ranked No 1

 

GDP per capita in US dollars 2002 figures

Scotland - no figure published, UK - $26,150

Iceland - $29,750 (13.7% above UK)

Norway - £36,600 (40% above UK)

Denmark - $30,940 (18.3% above UKl)

Ireland - $36,360 (39% above UK)

 

Infant mortality per 1000 live births

Scotland 5.7

Iceland 2.3

Norway 4.0

Denmark 4.0

Ireland 6.0 tut tut and wi yun money too

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

 

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/news2001/00annprs.html

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu

[islandhopper]

Scotland has a GDP per capita of $23,622, placing it in the third quartile - the same as last year - of a 31-country sample along with the UK and Finland. The first quartile was led by Luxembourg and also included the USA and Ireland. But the position of Ireland may reflect the consequences of transfer pricing 1 by the large number of multi-national companies present in that country. Luxembourg's high position may be due to the dominance of externally-owned banks and financial institutions.

Figure is for 2001!

 

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/03/17471/22721

[derick]

"Scotland has a GDP per capita of $23,622"

 

Good reseach Islandhopper and this is my point exactly.

The "Union Dividend" in action. Not good enough. Could do better.

[AndDenWeMadeTea]

A few points points here to add. I like your replies and I respect both your opinions greatly....BUT........

 

Firstly in relation to Bavaria and the rest of Germany. Bavaria has a different mind set from the rest of Germany. Island hopper - you mentioned Leiderhosen, beer, kilts and bagpipe steriotypes....not me!!!

 

My point is that bearing in mind the people I know and have spoken to from Germany, the general consensus is that the people in the south (Bavaria) are generally different to the the people elsehwere in the country. Politically, socially and culturally, there are differences. And...dare I say it....a bit of rivalry, dislike but also respect between the two.

 

Derrick...this brings me on to Scotland. The majority of the Scots are not in favour of independence, (52% I think!!) Yet it looks - unforuntately- like you may be doing well at Holyrood at the coming election. Where does this leave you??? People might be voting for you, but with NO real realisation that they are in fact voting for independence??? Think of when peope voted for Hitler in the same vain. No one really knew what they were voting for! Whilst you are a free democratic party - unlike the NAZIs of course- my point is that people might vote for independence by the back door, just like they voted for Adolf Hitler by the back door. That is not true democracy!! The same things apply in our great United Kingdom.

 

I respect the points that you make re. GDP. But, again, this just shows to me how well Scotland is doing as PART of the Union!! The excellent figures that you quote with regard to Scotland make me even proud to be Scottish (as part of the Union). I accept that the Tories seek more power for the Scottish parliament, but they DO NOT want to break up our country.

 

That the difference. And...there is the rub......'our country'. However great, applicable and forward thinking the SNP policies are, you are a naionalist, separtist movement. As you say Derick....there is no going away from that. The question is....to what extent is you objective of independence going to cause reall divisions in Scottish society. This will especially be the case when people start geting their head around it totally and realise fully what you stand for, and realise that you are not just media sound bites!! Think about mixed Scottish-English ethinic families, think about people working together for local and national economies, think about where OUR country is going.

[islandhopper]

Firstly in relation to Bavaria and the rest of Germany. Bavaria has a different mind set from the rest of Germany. Island hopper - you mentioned Leiderhosen, beer, kilts and bagpipe steriotypes....not me!!!

 

My point is that bearing in mind the people I know and have spoken to from Germany, the general consensus is that the people in the south (Bavaria) are generally different to the the people elsehwere in the country. Politically, socially and culturally, there are differences. And...dare I say it....a bit of rivalry, dislike but also respect between the two.

Sorry dear, that's not right - but you are probably closer to the fact than you might believe. Steriotypes are on the table from both sides - probably that's the reason why Scotland and Bavaria have a close partnership.

 

As to political differences: There are none. Federal laws apply in Bavaria as anywhere else in the republic. Bavaria has no extra representatives in the first parliamentary chamber (Bundesstag) and has the same number of representatives in the second chamber (Bundesrat) according to population figures as have other states with larger shares in population like North Rhine Westfalia or Baden Wurttemberg.

 

The Bavarian parlament and government have no specific rights to create special Bavarian laws than has any other parlament or government of any other federal state - a completely different situation compared with Scotland and devolution.

 

Bavarian culture has no extra status. Bavarian dialect for example is no protected minority language (compared with Gaelic and/or Scots) under EU convention as are Danish, Sorbian, Frisian, Romani and Low German, spoken in the northern half of our republic.

 

Devolution in Scotland has up to now by far more achieved than Bavaria (or any other federal state within the FRG) might achieve within the next 50 years or so. There are much more "reserved matters pro Berlin" than there are "reserved matters pro Westminster". Please, look at the details!

 

Sidenote: It is somehow funny to see in how far the CSU (the explicitly conservative if not right wing regional sister party of the CDU) is closely working together with and using the same vocabulary as the SNP which sometimes desrcibes herself moderate to ... left wing ... with the CSU more contra EU and the SNP ???