Hell on earth

[whodat]

Apologies to all concerned for my poor choice of wording. I never said anything about children being raped or abused by parents. However if something becomes normal to an abused person and they believe that what they then go on to do is a way to show love or whatever for another, then inmany instances they will be enjoying what they do beacuse they believe it is a loving act. I am not an expert, just self-educated curmudgeon but I don't understand how some can go on to justify their acts against others by saying "It was done to me". But then I have not stood in their shoes, thank god. There are many many folk who have been abused and have not gone on to abuse others. After events described next, I read the David Peltzer books and that helped (partially) open my eyes to the suffering that victims go through. But it's not an excuse to visit the same upon others and that is what I was trying to get across in my post. Poorly, perhaps and I DO apologise to anyone offended. To explain, my own late wife - a Shetland lass -was abused as a child (not by parents, I should add) and it affected us all - me and our children and everyone she was close to - for many years before she was able to speak to me and others of it, so I am maybe a wee bit emotional on the subject. She was a loving caring mother and wife who punished herself terribly mentally for years over what she felt she had done or allowed to be done and thanks to the mentality of those who excuse the abusers by saying "they can't help it, it was done to them so it comes round", lived in fear that she too had become "infected" and would end up like the scum that hurt her.

 

Twerto at least, I hope, understood what I was trying to say in my hamfisted way. That is what I meant by a life sentence to the victims.

 

It gets my goat though the way it is wheeled out as an excuse for just about any sick or deviant act these days. Are you seriously going to try to tell me Mr Malachy that EVERY single sex offender/criminal/pedophile was raped or abused as a child? Because that is what your post "suggests". You took a statement I made about sex criminals in general and turned it to your own ends and that has equally offended me, sir.

 

Once again, I sincerely apologise for poor wording, but certainly NOT the statement that Mr Malachy has put into my mouth, which I find bemusing on a forum which has seen some seriously offensive posts (in my opinion and that is the point here, each has their own) not all of which have had to have been edited by moderators due to content.

 

I will accept censure for the stupid use of that word but not condemnation for the gist of my statement, explained above, by which I stand.

 

If you read what I said Mr Malachy, you will see that I do NOT have answers. And that prison is a societal problem. I never once advocated death penalty for rapists or sex cfrimes or said lock them up and throw away the key, or any of the extreme suggestions on this thread.

 

Mr Malachy, I will not post on this particular topic again, as it is too close to home and painful. I thought I maybe had a view to offer and was wrong (again). I am sorry if I come across as angry or upset, but I am both and I can't help it. My own fault, not yours.

[Twerto]

Yes, and that is the point. Abuse can become the norm, at which point that person cannot be regarded as fully responsible for their actions.

 

Firstly sorry for only Quoting a small part.. but that sentence partially doesn't sit well with me.. or another way of putting it "there within lies the problem".

 

"responsibility"

 

As someone else ( i think styles ) stated else where on the forum.. people are all to readily happy to pass the buck so to speak.. and never take responsibility for their own actions.

 

Yes the person who originally abused the current abuser is ultimately responcabile for that chain so to speak.. but that imo does not give the abused any excuse/justification to go and do it him/herself.

 

Yes abuse of any sort weather it be rape, pedophilia, murder etc are not nice and should not be belittled in anyway.. but this attitude of "oh it was done to them so that partially excuses them" is wrong imo. any form of excuse for these hideous crimes is belittling the acts them selves.. thus feeding this feeling of normality that an abused may feel.

 

and if that feeling is fueled.. then society just slips that little bit further down the slippery slope.

[NewMagnie]

To get back to what this debate is all about, I am convinced the present prison system does not rehabilitate the majority of offenders and we the tax payer keeps these people roofed , fed and watered .

Therefor i think they should be made to earn this charity we bestow upon them and be marched oot o there beds every morning for a good hard days work , whats wrong we that? I have been happily putting in good hard days work steady for the last 20 years now and It has done me nothing but good.quote]

 

Given that we incarcerate more people than any country in Europe (unless the figures need to be revisited in the light of Turkey entering the EU) Finding useful endeavours for these innumerable wretched miscreants is going to have the effect of putting a fair few ostensibly honest bodies out of a job - that's whats wrong we that.

 

Personally I'd rather see the, no doubt, hefty costs of setting up and operating chain gangs, or their 21st century ilk, spent on helping the long term unemployed back to work.

 

Besides, its too defeatist to say that prisons aren't rehabilitating offenders so lets just not bother. If we want rehabilitation of the prison population, we should have it. At the end of the day, they're coming out when they've done their spell - if the relevant authorities haven't done their level best to ensure that they don't want to go back in, then the system is a failure.

 

Not that I expect that to be bone of contention - the issue is that I haven't heard anyone demonstrate that nay of the world's more draconian judicial systems has resulted in lower levels of crime - although I understand that under the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot petty crime was probably lower.

 

20 years in a gulag for hording cabbages? Small price to pay....

 

Besides, its rather defeatist

[Malachy]

It is one of the problems of a forum like this, that a single piece of poor wording can so easily be misconstrued or blown out of proportion. I apologise whodat if I have offended you, because that was not my intention. Your post was certainly ambiguous, and on re-reading it I don't think my interpretation was unreasonable. However, if that was not what you meant to say then that was not what you meant to say.

 

My point remains though. Someone who suffers abuse can be affected in all kinds of unpredictable and terrible ways. Particularly if that person does not have the benefit of a loving, caring family later in life. If the effect is to make that person angry or violent, which it sometimes, not always, is, then society's response should not simply be to find a suitable punishment for the crime, but to try to deal with the real issue, in order to protect others and to make their life better.

 

I don't believe every sex offender was abused as a child. Human beings are infinitely complex things, and there are a multitude of reasons why it might happen. The point is that it cannot simply be attributed to them being 'bad' or 'evil' people. That is a simplistic and ineffective response. A truly humane society would work much harder at identifying the real causes of crime, whatever they might be, rather than just trying to clear up the mess afterwards. Unfortunately we still don't seem to live in that society.

 

(PS My name is Malachy, please stop using Mr. It sounds very patronising, though I'm sure that's not your intention.)

[Fjool]

I don't believe every sex offender was abused as a child.

Nor does every abused child go on to become a sex offender.

[Malachy]

If the effect is to make that person angry or violent, which it sometimes, not always, is,

 

That's what I thought I said there Fjool.

[Fjool]

If the effect is to make that person angry or violent, which it sometimes, not always, is,

 

That's what I thought I said there Fjool.

 

a single piece of poor wording can so easily be misconstrued

 

QED

 

Perhaps you were meaning this, but I was making it explicit. I think it's an issue which is often forgotten and, if we go down this route, we run the risk of thinking that it's ok to lock up people who were abused because the 'common wisdom' is that they will go on to become abusers themselves. Flawed logic, of course, but some folks sail frighteningly close to this way of thinking.

[Njugle]

Ref: Twerto; Is it an excuse, though, or more of an understanding? I dread the prospect of this thread getting bogged down on the subject of abuse, but a third hand anecdote does spring to mind: Someone once told me of the difficulty of being a social worker. The reference point being, "How do you explain to a father that sleeping with his daughter, because he loves her, is not right".

Scary stuff. You know it's wrong, i know it's wrong, but without the likes of "You'll burn in hell" how do you explain it? "You'll go to jail". There 'the secret' is forged.

Sticking them in jail and/or castrating them for something they don't understand or comprehend is not perhaps the most worthwhile answer, but what is?

 

Humans are animals with a tendency toward civillisation. Remove that tendency and what are you left with?

 

Then, how do you govern?

 

Then what has 'civillisation' become?

 

I hope the context of those questions is clear, it saves me a lot of typing.

[Malachy]

A very good point, Njugle ^^^

 

This is an incredibly complex issue, but I would always say that society's responsibility is to be humane and to provide a good role model for its own citizens. This is just one of the many reasons why capital punishment is, in all case, wrong.

 

After all, the most effective way to deal with crime is surely to execute all criminals, no matter what the crime. There would certainly be less drink driving. But is that the kind of society we want to live in?

[Twerto]

before i get misconstrued.. i am against capital punishment mostly ( part of me feels some people deserve it, but i would never want to conflict on anyone at the same time )

 

but in addition to the society's responsibility. there is an element of being cruel to be kind and I feel society is on the verge of takeing things too humainly, to kind, to PC how ever you want to phrase it.

 

To me it is Society's responsibility to find the middle ground ( i say it as if it is easy, but im fully aware it's not ) but chances are middle ground would mean life is very boring so it will never be found.

[Ally]

Eloquently objections to the "prison should be hell" suggestions people, although I note the poll results illustrate that majority opinion is in favour of the Right Honourable Mr styles' proposals...

[Twerto]

I think the thing that possably annoys me most on this subject is they dont give anything back to society while they are in prision.. I'm not meaning they should all be shackled up and spend the day breaking rocks.. but they should have to do something that is of value to the community at least.

[Malachy]

I forgot about the poll thing.

[JAStewart]

People should have read the thread first.

[junior]

Firstly, and most importantly, I don't believe in human rights. We are mere parasites on this planet and for every second we spend here we should feel extremely lucky. If everyone thought like that their would be less crime in the first place. Civil liberties are another matter.

 

I don't think that prisons should deliberately be made hell any more than I think they should be made easier by the supply of playstations etc. I am equally uneasy with the arguments made from either extreme of the debate here. For example:

 

In Islam stealing for necessity is not a crime, but I guess thats hard to prove, but under Shar law they its only countries that adopt that in their decison makeing like Saudie Arabia that actually chop bits off.

 

I honestly think murders should be treated to utter pain, humilation and suffering. They should lose the tag of human and be enduced to no end of torment. I think murder or assualt that the person is injured for life should have the culprits, if we cant kill them, made to suffer.

 

I would love it if the loved ones of a victim could decide the punishment, you may get a few (probally christians) who would forgive, but most would want them to suffer. Quite right.

 

IMHO humiliation as a punishment has no place in civilised society. And in terms of other inflicted deliberate - and presumably physical - suffering: I can't help thinking that to enjoy watching another person suffer in this way is a little sick.

 

And I pray for the world that you can convince the Muslim community about Sharia law being optional

 

On the other hand:

 

Boredom is a pretty bad thing for a prisoner to experience in a prison, because these people should not be left to just sit and think, they need to be kept active, with education and activities.

 

My heart bleeds. Not through sympathy, but because the guy in the next cell has just stabbed me with a screw driver! I think I've made my point.

 

Are you really saying that it is the taxpayers fault that a prisoner ends up taking hard drugs because no entertainment was supplied

 

Where's my playstation for being a good citizen? Where's my playstation for being bored?

 

As far as I'm concerned, as long as there is a single good citizen in this country living in poverty, nothing more than food and shelter should be supplied to prisoners. Anything else would be (and is) and injustice.