Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[gavva]

Arabs and the Israelis have been fighting since time immemorial over that tiny plot of land called Israel. Their battle is not one of flesh and blood, but of spiritual things. The Bible states that the last great battle will pit Israel against the rest of the Middle East and its allies. How did it all begin and why have they remained mortal enemies for thousands of years?

 

It began in Genesis 16 when YHWH (Yahweh) made His Covenant with Abraham's son Isaac, and in essence, sent the half-brother Ishmael on his merry way to become "a geat nation" (the present day Arabs, most of whom are Muslim). In Genesis 16:13-16 (years before Abraham's second son Isaac was born) the Angel of the Lord told Abraham's servant Hagar that her son Ishmael would be "...a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him; and he will live to the east of all his brothers."

 

Genesis 17: 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" 19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."

 

Conflict between the two sons of Abraham began from the very start. Genesis 21:9 says the conflict began just after Isaac was weaned: "Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking."

 

Galatians 4 tells us that Ishmael had been "born according to the flesh" while Isaac had been "born according to the promise". Isaac replaced Ishmael as the favored son and heir. This, of course, made Ishmael jealous and bitter. As a result, he mocked and disdained his half-brother. Eventually the situation became so intolerable that Abraham's wife Sarah demanded that Ishmael and his Egyptian concubine mother, Hagar, be expelled permanently from Abraham's family.

 

But YHWH loved Hagar and her son, and had mercy upon them. He promised Hagar that her son would beget twelve princes who would become a great nation. Ishmael then went to live in the wilderness region of Hejaz in what became known as the Arabian Peninsula. He indeed had twelve patriarchal sons who became associated with the peoples known as Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians and Assyrians. The Bible and Islamic tradition both agree that Ishmael became the leader of all the great desert peoples of the Middle East.

 

YHWH provided many opportunities in this story for redemption of bad situations created mostly out of disobedience and lack of faith. Abraham had agreed to impregnate Hagar at the request of his wife Sarah, even though God had told Abraham and Sarah that they would one day have their own son. To be fair to Ishmael, God provided him a great kingdom of his own "to the east" of his brother, but it was never enough. Ishmael's descendants have always been jealous that Isaac's descendants were able to claim the full inheritance of Abraham.

 

This jealousy and resentment created an unparalleled hate which has set off wars and atrocities for four thousand years. It was the title deed to the land of Israel, which God promised to Abraham's lineage, that has been the source of the friction between the Jews and the Arabs right up to the present day.

 

Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. However, they fail to explain how the New Testament clearly teaches that the Covenant was made with Isaac and his descendants.

 

According to Islamic tradition, Abraham had eight sons rather than two who were reared in Mecca, not Hebron. They insist it was Ishmael, not Isaac, whom Abraham was about to sacrifice on Mount Moriah when an angel stopped him. According to the Koran, the Abrahamic covenant, with its promises - including the title deed to the land of Israel - was passed down to the Arabs through Ishmael, rather than to the Jews through Isaac.

 

If one believes that the Old and New Testaments were written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, then there is no question that Israel is the Promised Land of the Jews. God's words to Abraham in Genesis are some 2,500 years older than the creation of Islam (whose "prophet" Mohammed was a murdering, thieving pedophile who "married" a seven year old child - but that's another story).

 

The bottom line is, YHWH fulfilled His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael. And He is about to use the consequential warfare between the two brothers in order to bring about His "end time" scenario....

 

Note: We at The Refiner's Fire believe God is using the spirit of Islam to make His end time prophecies happen. Why? Because, as a Muslim e-mail pen-pal of ours recently wrote: "Muslims HATE Jews and Christians and all they stand for, including Capitalism." The Bible says that in the end times, believers in Yeshua will be beheaded for their belief (Rev. 20:4). And who are the ONLY people in the entire universe who still behead? The Muslims! They have become the world's worst enemy, as evidenced by the myriad terrorist attacks not only on Israel but the entire world. And the worst is yet to come....For more, please see our Challenging Islam page.

 

 

 

 

Author Hal Lindsay recently wrote the following:

 

....This is exactly the situation that continues to develop in the Middle East. The world has been dragged into the ancient conflict between Isaac and Ishmael in spite of its best efforts to stay out of it. This conflict that has raged between these two half brothers for 4,000 years is destined to ignite the last war of the world, according to the Bible prophets.

 

Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, has brought over one billion people on to his side of this ancient conflict through the religion of Islam. From the time he started the Muslim religion, the dimensions of the conflict began to enlarge. When his followers laid claim to Jerusalem as the their third holiest site, the die was cast for Jerusalem to become the trigger of the war of Armageddon, just as the prophet Zechariah predicted 2500 years ago. Zechariah prophesied "Jerusalem would become a burdensome stone for all the peoples" and that "All nations of the earth will be gathered [for war] because of it." (Zechariah 12:3)

 

We are eyewitnesses to this taking place right now.

 

The other major spheres of power that will be drawn into this final war are clearly predicted.

 

Ezekiel predicts that a nation to the extreme north of reborn Israel will become Israel's arch enemy. It will be a nation with a vast arsenal with which it will arm all of the Muslim nations. Russia is the only nation to the extreme north of Israel. And they are descended from the tribe of Magog through the Scythians, just as Ezekiel predicted. God Himself commands this power from the extreme north to take command of the confederated Muslim forces and lead them in an all out attack against Israel. This attack is the first battle of the war of Armageddon.

 

The Book of Revelation predicts another sphere of power that will enter this war with 200 million soldiers. This power bloc is called "the Kings of the East". They will move into the Middle East and attack once the war has started. The Bible says they will wipe out a third of the world's population.

 

The fourth power bloc is the Western force led by a revived form of the Roman Empire. Daniel and the Apostle John both predict this power in great detail. It will begin when a great leader springs up in Rome and takes the strongest 10 Nations of the EU and uses them to form his power base.

[Gibber]

Note: We at The Refiner's Fire believe God is using the spirit of Islam to make His end time prophecies happen. Why? Because, as a Muslim e-mail pen-pal of ours recently wrote: "Muslims HATE Jews and Christians and all they stand for, including Capitalism." The Bible says that in the end times, believers in Yeshua will be beheaded for their belief (Rev. 20:4). And who are the ONLY people in the entire universe who still behead? The Muslims! They have become the world's worst enemy, as evidenced by the myriad terrorist attacks not only on Israel but the entire world. And the worst is yet to come....For more, please see our Challenging Islam page.

 

Why not take your god squad yip yappery (that you've pasted and not credited) elsewhere? You could bring some relevant to the topic comments on religion of your own, if you must and if you can.

[gavva]

Why not take your god squad yip yappery (that you've pasted and not credited) elsewhere? You could bring some relevant to the topic comments on religion of your own, if you must and if you can.

 

Yes Gibber this is a free forum that means free for all not just free for you the Jew............... and we wonder why there is so much animosity felt towards the Jews. I think your posts prove why because they are full of arrogance and self righteousness.

 

So I shall continue to post what I wish to post as do you.

 

Not my fault that you and the Jews murdered the Messiah and are still looking for him. However when you do see Him, that is the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah whom your ancestors did not recognise because of that Jewish charm which is arrogance and self righteousness He will come to judge the nations.

[xoni]

Do you know that if humanitarian aid were increased to an accecptable level would the Stop the War Coalition be in favour of a blockade of munitions to stop Hamas accumulating arms?

 

No , The Stop The War Coalition would not be in favour of the blockade remaining under these circumstances. We are neither pro nor anti Hamas.

 

Do you know what Stop the War Coalition's position is on the defensive Israeli missile system, Iron Dome? I would have thought that an organisation that claims to be humanitarian and anti-war would be very much in favour of such a device that prevents rockets landing on a civilian population and might prevent an operation such as Cast Lead happening again.

 

 

I am not going to answer this until I get an official line of reply from STWC , different people have different views throughout the STWC but if you want the organisations definitive position this might take some time , as I am sure you will understand they are very busy right now.

[Gibber]

Yes Gibber this is a free forum.....He will come to judge the nations.

 

And I pray to the Mods that they will come to judge you.

[gavva]

Yes Gibber this is a free forum.....He will come to judge the nations.

 

And I pray to the Mods that they will come to judge you.

 

Hit a nerve me thinks

[Gibber]

Think harder!

[Gibber]

Do you know that if humanitarian aid were increased to an accecptable level would the Stop the War Coalition be in favour of a blockade of munitions to stop Hamas accumulating arms?

 

No , The Stop The War Coalition would not be in favour of the blockade remaining under these circumstances. We are neither pro nor anti Hamas

 

That took a while to register actually, and I'm not sure if I'm getting a double negative confused in your answer.

 

To clarify, removal of the blockade has to be total including the free passing of weapons onto Hamas?

 

If thats the case is there anywhere this can be quoted? sorry if I've misunderstood your answer.

[paulb]

1, gavva you claim to be a follower of the saviour Jesus Christ. yet you are bitter that is not the way of the saviour. why do you hate other followers of the one true god. they may differ in lots but they believe.

2, the Jews did not kill the saviour they hand him over to the Romans it was the roman empire that executed him. however to class the death of the saviour s someones fault is again an error. he chose to die if you believe he was the son of god don't you think he could have stopped it if he had wanted to. if not him his dad would have. you miss the glorious gift he gave to mankind by his sacrifice.

3.to try and carry on the blood libel is shameful even the roman catholics admitted that they were wrong.

4. the claim that you make against Islam and the Jewish faith are wrong. they re followers of the one true god. if you look back before the crusades the 3 groups got on OK in the near east.

5. this topic is about one states treatment of another people. nowt to do with faith.

 

gibber why don't you lay off the guy. he believes what he believes. you seem to think israel is the little innocent state of the world. its not with state sponsered murder and illegal occupation of other nations land they would have been bombed back to the stone age if the were arabs. yet none of the protaganists are innocent they all gain from conflict. israel would be very poor stte without the billions in aid from the usa.

[EM]

.. and we wonder why there is so much animosity felt towards the Jews. I think your posts prove why because they are full of arrogance and self righteousness.

An interesting and pertinent comment. I encountered a similar view expressed by a Shetlink lurker on this very point. The gist was basically that the individual had never held any opinions either way on Jews, but that due to the "twisted arguments of Gibber" they were now realising why the problems in the middle east were insoluble. Indeed they added that they no longer held a neutral view on Jews across the board, and saw them as trouble makers. I did, of course, point out that there is a huge difference between Jew and Zionist. Such an anecdote is small cheese, but nevertheless I would suggest that it is a sobering reflection of the damage caused by unrestrained pro-Zionist spin.

[Gibber]

^If your lurker is so witless as to embrace racism I wouldn’t expect them to be able to engage with me on anywhere near an equal intellectual level in any kind of discussion on Israel.

 

You on the other hand are ideally suited to a long and intellectually stimulating relationship with him or her on Zionism and Jews.

 

De-lurk mystery Shetlinker and tell me where my views on Israel are twisted you self acknowledged anti-semite. I'm sure your racist fueled views on Israel are very even-handed!

[skaterboy]

The only reason they are still considered refugees is as a political tactic to hammer Israel with.

 

dear oh dear, been reading and believing all you read if it agrees with your preconceptions again AT.

 

You your parents and your grand parents could all be born and lived your whole lives in anyone of the arab states, but if your great grandparents were not born there you would not have citizenship, in most arab states my dear deluded boy you don't even have your birth right.

 

But don't take my word for it get on a plane and go ask them that lives there that are in fact stateless.

They can't leave as they don't have a passport and where would they go as most other countries won't recognise them as citizens just because their parents or grandparents originally came from there.

 

The arabs are very happy with this situation as it gives them a large underclass that they can exploit ruthlessly, so before you and the rest of the arab apologists on here preach about how bad Israel is please take the time and effort to get your facts straight.

[EM]

...I wouldn’t expect them to be able to engage with me on anywhere near an equal intellectual level

Why don't you go the full hog and add "modesty" to your list of virtues and superiorities? You really just do not get it.

[Gibber]

...I wouldn’t expect them to be able to engage with me on anywhere near an equal intellectual level

Why don't you go the full hog and add "modesty" to your list of virtues and superiorities? You really just do not get it.

 

I don't need to, my arguments on this thread speak for themselves and you have had more than your fair share of opportunities to refute them, not that you can any more than your racist lurker chum.

[xoni]

I can't offer you a location to find STWCs position in writing but I can assure you that this is the case. Our aim is to end the blockade and the best way to achieve that is by gaining as much support as possible including that of Hamas followers.