Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[Gibber]

The only reason they are still considered refugees is as a political tactic to hammer Israel with.

 

I think AT means this conflict has been nurtured by Arab states who haven't given citizenship to refugees because the humanitarian situation in the camps is a political pressure on Israel. Jordan has given citizenship to Palestinians, good for them I say.

[skaterboy]

Ok I get it now the arabs keep the refugees living in poop to force the Israeli's to surrender what nice humane people they are.

 

I Still stand by my opinions of the arab states being corrupt despotic hell-holes.

 

I'm always amazed at the opinions formed by folks with zero experience of a situation, how they always shout the loudest when they know the least.

[Gibber]

I can't offer you a location to find STWCs position in writing but I can assure you that this is the case. Our aim is to end the blockade and the best way to achieve that is by gaining as much support as possible including that of Hamas followers.

 

Thanks Xoni.

 

What is your personal opinion of stopping the blockade to allow weapons into Gaza even if there was an accecptable (and by that I mean accecptable to you, and not just nominal to the point of being able to live above poverty or in relative comfort or whatever) level of goods and aid etc?

[ArabiaTerra]

I Still stand by my opinions of the arab states being corrupt despotic hell-holes.

I completely agree. That's why I brought up the state (or lack of it) of the Palestinians living outside Israel/Palestine. Their plight is similar to that of the Gazan's and those living in the West Bank. But this doesn't excuse the Israeli's either. Both sides are at fault here.

 

But as Gavva showed, the whole mess is, at it's root, caused by religion, which is why, I believe, it is time we as human beings ditched the whole racist, bigoted, misogynistic, stinking dung pile which is organised religion.

 

It's time the human race grew up and realised there are no magic sky faerie's judging us. We're on our own here.

 

There is no fate, but what we make.

 

(Bonus points for getting the geek reference.)

[EM]

... my arguments on this thread speak for themselves

Well, on that we are agreed, though I expect we do not agree on what we believe they say. I would describe your approach to the noble art of debate as being riddled with irrationality, emotional spin, diversion and above all the use of "straw man" tactics.

 

...any more than your racist lurker chum.

A perfect example of your style. Did I say that the individual is a chum of mine? I did not. You state this status in your comment as if it were fact. This is quite wrong, but something you repeatedly resort to.

 

Consider the following three quotes:

If you really believe that Israel boarded the ship and started shooting at people without due cause that is up to you, it’s not a “fact such as today’s†though. It’s your own ‘fact’...

If you want to defend the mob on the Marmara or the mob of fundamentalists that rule Gaza go ahead,

... a mob attacking soldiers with clubs and throwing a soldier off the top deck of the ship ... It’s what happened on the ship, if it didn’t in your mind that is again your prejudice.

Reading those statements someone would draw the conclusion that I had previously made the specific claims you attribute to me. They are all, however, entirely the product of your "straw man" approach. You seem to think that anyone who criticises Israeli actions, by default supports all others who are in conflict with Israel. This is completely bonkers. I have made no comments concerning the people on the ships, or on their actions. Your statements are therefore highly irresponsible.

[Gibber]

[A perfect example of your style. Did I say that the individual is a chum of mine? I did not. You state this status in your comment as if it were fact. This is quite wrong, but something you repeatedly resort to.

 

I'm sorry EM I should of course have said aquaintence.

 

You have been at liberty to expand on this since you first posted it

 

True colours shown today I think. Nothing short of a state sponsored piratical massacre I would suggest.

 

with full reference to the armed mob attempting to kill the Israelis, the reason there were no deaths on the other ships and reference to previous precedent of navys boarding civilian vessels if you please darling, chop chop, you've already had over a day to show me that pronouncing Israeli massacres without knowing any other circumstances than a death toll isn't prejudice. Jenin should be a lesson to you.

[Gibber]

Why not get your Holocaust denying chum who you rate as a Shetland Hunster S Thomson to help you out?

[xoni]

What is your personal opinion of stopping the blockade to allow weapons into Gaza even if there was an accecptable (and by that I mean accecptable to you, and not just nominal to the point of being able to live above poverty or in relative comfort or whatever) level of goods and aid etc?

 

My personal opinion is there is extreme risk associated with removing the blockade. Acting with real caution is a prerequisite. Making sure there are stratagies ready to deal with any consequenses.

[Gibber]

Do you mean the risk of rearming Hamas? If you do I don't think I would like to rely on STWC having any kind of strategy (or motivation) to stop an attack on Israel with these weapons.

[xoni]

Hamas need to enter into peace talks for this truly to work , they are already in talks with Egypt and in the past have hinted towards a truce and de facto recognition of israel but have not been prepared to renounce violence. Obama is supposedly about intensify effort into relauncing peace talks. Hamas are a critical element in the peace process and I dont really see how it can work without them being part of it.

[Gibber]

I think you are basically right there, as much as it irks me to legitimise and talk to Hamas it would have irked those in the past as much talking to Arafat and undoubtably Israel and Arafat should have done a lot more talking.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Why not get your Holocaust denying chum who you rate as a Shetland Hunster S Thomson to help you out?

 

There you go again Gibber...

 

Gibber[/url]"] So you agree with me and others that the mods should close this thread?

 

Make your mind up mate; I was more than happy to debate the facts of the holocaust, even up against your intellectual level of misrepresentation, prevarication and obfuscation but you were determined to see the thread locked; Yet just as determined to use it to launch your little guerella attacks from almost every other thread.

 

I encountered a similar view expressed by a Shetlink lurker on this very point. The gist was basically that the individual had never held any opinions either way on Jews, but that due to the "twisted arguments of Gibber" they were now realising why the problems in the middle east were insoluble. Indeed they added that they no longer held a neutral view on Jews across the board, and saw them as trouble makers. I did, of course, point out that there is a huge difference between Jew and Zionist

 

Quite so; in fact I'd have gone further; It's not so much being a Zionist that makes a trouble maker, more how a corrupt system of beliefs and ideals can affect the individual and how they choose to use them. Bob Dylan is a Zionist and a fine fellow; Albert Einstein another; alright he had some crazy ideas about time and space but I would have liked to have seen how things would have looked today, if he had taken up the prime minister position when offered.

 

People can be played like old fiddles by governments, religions and the like, to fall into the old same traps again and again and again and the cycle seems unlikely to be broken anytime soon.

 

Not my fault that you and the Jews murdered the Messiah

 

Yes it is gavva, it is exactly the fault of people like you, who will give up on reason and go running after the belief that a man (sorry mangod) can walk on water, raise people from the dead, rise from the dead, turn water into wine and feed thousands with two fish, to the point that you can hate an entire group of people some two thousand year later, by spreading the ridiculous, holy truth of the Crucifixion around, like so much cancer; fostering many shades of hate as you do so.

 

"It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews.  The anti-semites shall be our best friendsâ€. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

 

Gibber just likes to play the bad stereotype so he can reinforce his own conviction that anyone who disagrees with him is an anti semite and justify his own position to himself.

 

If anyone saw the channel 4 documentary "Defamation" by a young Jewish film maker; it gave a pretty good description of how the Zionist system works to mould its young into the paranoid damaged people they want for the cause.

 

I don't know what the Whitehouse has to say on the boat incident but at a stab in the dark, I bet words like "a regrettable loss of life" have been the choice.

I don't imagine they would be as softly softly if it had gone down the same but with the tables turned.

As for what will happen over it...

 

USS Liberty incident[/url]"]Again McNamara ordered the aircraft recalled. He requested confirmation of the order being unable to believe that Washington would let us sink. This time President Johnson ordered the recall with the comment that he did not care if every man drowned and the ship sank, but that he would not embarrass his allies.

 

Not much I guess, except peace getting further away.

[gavva]

Yes it is gavva, it is exactly the fault of people like you, who will give up on reason and go running after the belief that a man (sorry mangod) can walk on water, raise people from the dead, rise from the dead, turn water into wine and feed thousands with two fish, to the point that you can hate an entire group of people some two thousand year later, by spreading the ridiculous, holy truth of the Crucifixion around, like so much cancer; fostering many shades of hate as you do so.

 

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

 

Answer: Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.†We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

 

It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

 

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

 

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians†(from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

 

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.†There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.†One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.â€

 

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

 

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

 

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

 

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

 

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

 

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

 

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,†led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

 

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

[Gibber]

Make your mind up mate; I was more than happy to debate the facts of the holocaust, even up against your intellectual level of misrepresentation, prevarication and obfuscation but you were determined to see the thread locked; Yet just as determined to use it to launch your little guerella attacks from almost every other thread.

 

You were not happy to debate the facts of the Holocaust, if you are upset you got caught posting lies from racist sources that supported your anti-semitic Holocaust denial which turned out to be demonstrably false then you shouldn't have done it in the first place.

 

http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=110

 

Why not get your Holocaust denying chum who you rate as a Shetland Hunster S Thomson to help you out?

 

Shouldn't you be helping EM with some intellectual humanitarian aid? there seems to be a blockade around his faculties

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Well done Gibber, you did get ONE thing demonstrably false, although the point remains that the gassings in the church was a lie told from world war one.

 

I was the one who found the source when asked, that showed it false after investigation and displayed it as such, unlike yourself who just shuffled past the many other points I raised

 

Simone Veil. A survivor from the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp. France-Soir Magazine (May 7, 1983, p. 47

 

"What strikes me nowadays is the paradox of the situation: someone publishes a diary attributed to Hitler by sheer dint of publicity and a great deal of money without, it seems, taking very great precautions to assure himself of its authenticity, yet, at the same time, in the course of a trial brought against Faurisson for having denied the existence of the gas chambers, those lodging the complaint are obliged to apply a formal proof about the reality of the gas chambers. Yet everyone knows that the Nazis destroyed these gas chambers and systematically eradicated all the witnesses."

 

Gibber

 

"People make mistakes"

 

I'm not going through requoting the whole thread again. If you want to restart it; fine. I may join in when I have time but if it means debating history with the likes of paulb, who thinks that people 2000 years ago could roll big stones away from thier own tomb and run for it and yourself who bends truth like Einstein bends space, then we may be there some time.

 

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

 

It's true, I've found him.

 

Oh and Terminator 2