Virginia College Gun Rampage

[BigMouth]

I have legally carried all sorts of weapons including a sawn-off shotgun. I carried them for personal protection as much as protection of others. People feel that they need to protect themselves these days, the Police included, hence the telescopic stick.

 

So people either carry weapons because they are scared or because it gives them power. Looks like a change of mindset is needed here as well as in the US.

[Sudden Stop]

Stephen Fry summed it up nicely on QI last night when talking about the US:

 

'Nice country, but where are all the grown ups?'

 

They all wanna pretend that they are in the old west and need a six shooter to stop their cattle from being stolen. I think the gun lobby in America is holding onto an immature idea that has been taught to them from a young age. Taking their guns from them is like trying to take toys from children. Except the tantrums are more deadly.

 

I carried them for personal protection as much as protection of others. People feel that they need to protect themselves these days, the Police included, hence the telescopic stick.

The police are putting themselves in harms way on a regular basis, which is why they are protecting themselves. The public is at far, far less risk of violence. If, in the situation of being threatened with violence, somebody pulls a gun on someone that is highly wound up and has the adrenaline flowing there is a greatly increased chance of one or both parties getting shot.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

I'm a small guy (only 5'3"). I am also a licensed concealed carry permit holder in my state. I lawfully carry a concealed weapon every day, to every location I am lawfully allowed to.

 

Recently, I was involved in an incident when leaving my bank's ATM. This occured in broad daylight, and in a good area. I was opening my car, when a knife-weilding criminal approached me, and announced a robbery. He placed the knife within six inches of my throat when he menaced me, and demanded all my cash, credit cards, and car keys.

 

I feigned compliance, and told him I was reaching for my wallet and keys. The knife lowered as he became more and more nervous and jittery Instead, I pulled a Glock 17, stepped back, and ordered him to the ground. He wisely complied, and I held him for police.

 

When the police arrived and searched him, they found in his possession more knives, stolen credit cards, stolen drivers licenses (many of which belonged to the ELDERLY), and a substantial amount of crack cocaine.

 

If I had not been able to defend myself, I would have been a robbery victim, and potentially a murder victim. Instead, an armed robber is off the streets, where he can no longer menace law abiding citizens. My lawfully carried gun was my equalizer

 

I was reading this and thinking, "Well good on the guy, if that had been me I would have been tempted to pop one in his knee as well just to remind him not to mug me again."

But then what if you repeated the scenario with a million victims and a million muggers with a million knives, throw in some more guns for the muggers and see what happens.

Yeah you'll get a good few crooks executed, maimed or successfully arrested, all good options, but I couldn't say how many of the victims would come a cropper through this course of action, but I'd bet there would be a fair few, by upping the anti you have put the mugger in a kill or be killed situation. Say your wife and kids were present, your fear factor would be increased, say the whole thing went pear shaped and the assailant shot you in the face, now your family has the elevated status of wittness to murder, which may not make their chances any better than yours.

The countries with the most gun deaths per capita (by FAR) all have one thing in commong... citizens were legally allowed to own guns as of 1994 (US, Brazil, & Mexico). The countries with the lowest per-capita rates of gun deaths. Guns are illegal altogether.

Unarmed victims wont have the advantage over their attacker, this may mean a couple of extra million dollar nicked by the black market but I bet there's less innocent bloodshed.

That's America for you the value of the dollar over the value of a few thousand ordinary lives.

The down side of this of course is that if Americans aren't killing one another there will be many more of them to put up with.

For the record, if anybody sees me in a bit of bother and they have a loaded sawn off shotgun handy dont come running in waving and pointing it anywhere near me I'll take me chances thanks.

[Para Handy]

KOYAANISQATSI

 

Is it funny every time I have meet people like you, who show so much self riotous, as you do, they always harp on about ban this ban that, until you suggest banning something they do and they sing another tune, say ban everybody from drinking alcohol and smoking. or ban them from having cars.

Or banning say football ect . banning something you disapprove off . how long until, they ban coloured people from going on the same bus as white people. Ban Muslims because the have a different view on religion than us. The excuse of the dictator all through history, gas the Jews, its about time they had schools teach classes about the Nuremberg Trials, I was only obeying orders excuse our gun laws have clearly not stopped gun crime, they will never be able to stop guns getting in to this country they cant stop drugs getting into a island the size of shetland. I met a man who was a pistol shooter, and if anybody new what could be done with a gun, or any other item, it was him. After all the British government issued the pistol to him, before drooping him into France in 1940, the pistol he shot with was the pistol he carried with him on the parachute drop. It saved his life in France in 1941. And his country turned round and said he could no longer be trusted, and I now quota him’ The people of this country are now nothing but a bunch of cowards and pacifists if Hitler walked down Whitehall today they would be bending over backwards to him just to get a job and Tony Blares view of the UK was not what he hand others who did died in world war II had gave there lives for and I could only agree with him. Death is appalling it does not matter how it happened, death is the one thing in this world that makes everybody the same, no big flash cars , no fancy houses no sliver spoon in your mouth.

When I see you standing at No 10 with a sing saying ban cars ban peanuts ban alcohol, because it get other people killed I will join you all and protest at No 10 but until then I will reserve the right to my own opinion on the subject, whatever the rights or wrongs. They may have guns in the US but if everybody had one, they would all start of on an even footing, would it be nice if we did not have guns in the world.? I don’t think it would make any difference. If there was no guns they would just find something else to kill you with after all, the IRA did ok with bag of fertiliser

[ArabiaTerra]

I think the crucial point here is that someone with a gun got in among a load of people without guns. That's the problem with gun control, unless its a watertight ban, the one load madman can cause a massacre. If everyone on that campus had been allowed to carry a gun then this guy might have got one or two before someone shot him but he would not have killed thirty two.

 

Food for thought?

[KOYAANISQATSI]

para handy wrote:

people like you, who show so much self riotous, as you do,

Let me start on your first surreal point by saying I hardly ever go of and riot by myself.

Secondly I drink, smoke, drive and like football. You can stuff as many blacks, muslims and jews on the same bus as me as you please, I fail to see the connection.

The pistol owner whose gun saved his life in 1941 might be getting on a bit, so it might be best for him to hang up his guns. Tell him Hitler wont be running up and down whitehall looking for work cause He's dead, that war is over.

If you see I have got to the stage where I'm in london singing about the horror of peanuts and booze, then you have my full permission to shoot me in the head, but as of yet my paranoia hasn't got to the stage that I dive for cover everytime someone pulls out a bag of peanuts.

 

some "sane" Americans wrote:

The fact that someone would actually suggest that a University would be more safe if students and professors were able to carry a concealed weapon would make campuses safer is by the far the most ridiculous and asinine comment I have heard in regards to the debate over this specific incident as well as to the larger debate over gun control. Do you think what really need is a densly populated and highly pedestrian environment comprised of mostly young,often emotionally volatile and maturing, young adults carrying firearms? Futhermore, in the college social landscape is mostly centered around drug and alcohol use? To me, this does not sound like the proper environment for human beings to be carrying around mechanisms designed to kill one or multiple people.

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And those of you saying "well if you outlaw guns, you've gotta outlaw cars, because people die in cars too". Just stop it. Cars serve a daily functional purpose in our society. If cars dissappeared tomorrow, our society would grind to a halt. If guns dissappeared tomorrow, you'd have a lot less people murdered and some pissed off hunters. All other aspects of society would move ahead as if nothing happened.

 

Sorry hunters, but your little pastime is not worth the collateral damage caused in the form of thousands and thousands of gun deaths in this country every year (and I'm an infrequent hunter myself.. but I'd give it up in an instant it it'd save one human life).

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I have heard it suggested that all citizens be required to carry side arms to reduce crime.

 

Most people that have guns today aren't qualified to own them, let alone be trusted to exercise restraint or any kind of fire discipline.

 

Now image 270 million adults, a large portion of them dim witted, lazy, irresponsible grown up children; Loaded guns left in the car on the drivers seat, in the shopping cart with the 2 year old, on the cash machine, in movie theaters. Dropped and forgotten in the WalMart parking lot.

 

Also, I read about a tiny town called Greenleaf, Id. that passed an ordinance requiring all adults to pack heat to protect public safety. (Note that no serious crime exists there. Somebody got beat up once.)

 

The authors of the bill, in their wisdom, decided to exempt anyone that objected to the law, on religious grounds!??!!

 

That got me thinkin';

 

Let's see the atheists, secular humanists, communists, etc. would be required to carry because they couldn't object on religious grounds!

 

And since according the the conservative religious right, Islam endorses violence, the Islamic Fascists would also be required to pack some heat. How could they object?

 

Only the righteous Christian peace-nicks could decline, I guess

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I have a hobby... It's playing with live hand grenades, ebola virus, and weapons-grade uranium. Since this is a free country I should have a right to do this, right? I'm a careful guy and I'd never hurt anybody.

 

Of course not. At some point we as a society need to draw a line on what is safe for individuals to do and own and what isn't. It's a cost-benefit analysis. I wish we could have guns safely in this country, but there's roughly 30,000 dead people a year as testament that we can't. The cost is way too high for the benefit that hunters get to have a fun little hobby. So just as I don't get to play with live hand grenades, ebola virus, and weapons grade uranium just because some other jacka$$ might kill a buncha people with those things, hunters don't get to play with guns because too many jacka$$es are out there killing innocent people with them

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All of the gun supporters in here can live in fantasy-land all you want and think that if everyone in our society carried guns, noone would get shot, but FACTS are FACTS. You don't have to wonder "what-if", just look at the real information available

 

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

 

parahandy wrote:

death is the one thing in this world that makes everybody the same,

 

Thanks all the same but that's one social eqaulity I would rather postpone.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

And by the way Para, if after 157 posts your are still missing every punctuation and spelling target available, it may be best to rethink the desired policy, before taking your .44 out to clean up these streets.

[Para Handy]

And by the way Para, if after 157 posts your are still missing every punctuation and spelling target available, it may be best to rethink the desired policy, before taking your .44 out to clean up these streets.

 

 

It is clear to see. That when you have to resort to picking on some one, because his English and punctuation is not up to your personal standards. Means that you argument cant stand up on its Own merits. When will you be putting your bill through parliament to ban people who do not come up to your punctuation standards? As for Hitler. He maybe dead but his creed is still on the march. You seam to fit the bill to a T. I don’t have a 44, I don’t even have a peashooter. I met the former soldier just by chance, when doing a job for the army, and yes he is dead now but at least one could respect him for what he and others did. So that people could br free to say what we think on this forum. With out getting a bullet in the back of the head, but some of the people shooting were shooting that day because it was the only thing they could do after having there legs and one arm blowing of by the IRA. So siting in a wheel chair that he could not push him self. But I suppose you will have him pushed down to the nearest oven. To be gassed

[Para Handy]

Just because one man did what he did in Dunblane. The people in this country tarred all the other shooter with the same brush. So if that is how things have to be run. Then it should apply to all others walks of life. I saw last week that a woman of 84 was attacked and raped in her home, so as all men have the same weapon to do the same thing. That means that all the men in the world. Will now have to go to their local hospital and have the weapon removed just in case it might happen again

[Sherlock]

Mr Handy, the following is a purely personal view on your posts, and in no way refelects on my honourable profession.

 

My dear fellow, your argument is fundamentally flawed in that men are born with said apparatus, whereas we have to make or buy - or steal - guns in order to own one, and thereby possibly abuse said item. If that is not enough to point out your flaw, I do not believe there is much else that will dissuade you.

 

I remember well when the Dunblane shootings took place. A friend of mine, newly out of the Police College, was one of the first responding Officers. It still affects him - and an entire community - to this day.

I would be interested to hear a debate between such as yourself and someone from that community - or any other that has been affected by gun crime - on this matter. Perhaps such a personal experience and viewpoint as theirs may sway you somewhat more than words from strangers.

 

To hear/read such articles as yours fills me with a sense of despair that my fellow man would be so addicted to the sense of power that a handgun/firearm can provide, that he would be willing to place many other lives at risk merely to prolong the rush that can come with the pull of a trigger. Or do you wish to have exemptions from the handgun ban for fine upstanding fellows, and run the risk of one slipping through due to the common factor in many such tragedies, i.e. HUMAN ERROR?

 

Might I humbly and respectfully suggest you try a more peaceful hobby?

 

I do not - honestly - mean to criticise, for it is not my place to do so. I merely cannot honestly understand the mindset that wants to own such weapons, just for the sake of it, when the potential is there for tragedy at every turn.

 

I have lost count of the number of times we hear from our American cousins of youths - and young children - shooting themselves and each other while playing with "Daddy's gun". I stand with my peers on this matter in saying that if banning handguns means one such child is saved, it is worth it.

 

The catch in this, of course, is that by ensuring the youth never has the opportunity, we also ensure we will never hear about it, because it will not have happened. Therefore there is no empirical evidence which to employ in arguing with the pro-choice/guns lobbies.

 

If everyone believed in free will and we were all such perfect souls, we would be truly civilised and have no need for guns, armies, wars or even laws.

 

But this is not Utopia, and - despite what we proclaim - we are not truly civilised, we merely drape ourselves in the trappings that are accretions of culture. We then use these to beat those from another, differing culture or viewpoint about the head with while proclaiming them barbarians or ignorant fools.

 

Finally, as for the argument, "well if you ban guns, they'll just use bombs", that may well be, however we will have less to worry about on a daily basis because guns are not such an issue and everyone is not carrying one. Is this not also simple logic?

 

So then, let us say "People are speeding! The law doesn't work! Hey, I know! Let's get rid of that law and let everyone drive as fast as they want, where they want, when they want!" It is a logical extension of the same sort of argument. Is it really an answer though?

 

I remain your humble servant.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

Para handy wrote:

to resort to picking on some one, because his English and punctuation is not up to your personal standards. Means that you argument cant stand up.

 

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I dont want to be the one to bring down the level of this by getting petty but you did begin this by calling me "self riotous" (whatever the hell that means) for my position of thinking that guns are dangerous.

My typing is by no means perfect, dont take everything so personal, the reason I mentioned your atrocious spelling and crazy punctuation, was just to point out that even with experience and training, mistakes can happen and I am just glad it is your posts I am facing when they do and not the barrel of your shooter.

[junior]

This is an interesting video. Not because it makes me change my mind on the subject, in fact its arguments are pretty poor, but because it contains a lady who's parents were killed by a gun-wielding mass-murderer, and she argues that with looser guns controls it wouldn't have happened.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=409_1176853869

[Para Handy]

 

I remember well when the Dunblane shootings took place. A friend of mine, newly out of the Police College, was one of the first responding Officers. It still affects him - and an entire community - to this day.

I would be interested to hear a debate between such as yourself and someone from that community - or any other that has been affected by gun crime - on this matter. Perhaps such a personal experience and viewpoint as theirs may sway you somewhat more than words from strangers.

 

T.

 

Sherlock

 

Are you implying that your friend? Would have felt a lot better, about the deaths in Dunblane. if instead of a handgun. Mr hamaton had taken over a bus, and driving over a cliff. With the school children on board. That he/she would not feel just as bad. I would like to think that any one of your work mates. Would feel that their deaths were appalling, regardless as how they were killed. Also Tony Blair and his government, and the police stated that people would be much safer. If they gave up there right to process a hand gun back in 1997 well as far as I can see they all lied. All the deaths in the south end of England, never mind in Manchester and Glasgow. In the past year shot that theory to hell.

I would also like to think that if they were no more guns. There would be no more killing. But they will just find something else to kill with. But as long as some guy thinks with his penis and not his head. They’re going to be a lot of dead girls being found under the floorboards of churches little girls taking from there baths, ect I have never felt the need to grab a gun and kill something with it. All I pointed out was that, if everybody had a gun, at least they would all be starting at the start line, an even chance,

No more than that. They cam make all the gun laws they want. But there will always be somebody who will ignore them. If it means they can get there hands on more money. Or drugs. I take your point about human error. But that applies to all walks of human life. As for me I would be just as appalled with the death of one person never mind 30 or more. As for your other quote ‘I stand with my peers on this matter in saying that if banning handguns means one such child is saved, it is worth it.’ I hope the following Quote also applies to you’ after the headline in the press

 

A child is killed by drunk driver in sports car

 

 

‘I stand with my peers on this matter in saying that if banning cars means one such child is saved, it is worth it.’

[Sudden Stop]

^^^

 

I think the point is that cars do serve a valuable purpose in society whereas guns have no really purpose in any modern society and a ban can only help to reduce the risk they pose to innocent people. Risk to the public is managed as much as possible with vehicles too, through strict design features and regular MOT checking of roadworthyness. Drivers are also tested prior to licensing and banned whenever a potential risk is identified.

 

It's all about risk managment.

[Claudias]

A ban produces nothing but anger and resentment, Why are we all such control freaks?