Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[EM]

If you want you can post a few things you do find agreeable about Israel.

I presume that by "Israel" you mean the state and official institutions of Israel rather than Jewish culture and endeavour. Laudable examples of the latter are many and exceptional. Not much springs to mind for the former, other than (at a push) perhaps a few of their Eurovision song entries.

[Gibber]

your prejudice that Israel is always wrong

 

Yet another blanket Gibber pronouncement of supposed fact. Something which you may hold as an opinion, but which is not actually the case. Contemptible, plain and simple.

 

If you want you can post a few things you do find agreeable about Israel.

 

Not much springs to mind for the former, other than (at a push) perhaps a few of their Eurovision song entries.

 

Actually seems to be the case then.

 

Look forward to keel hauling you and your rudderless shipwrecked arguments again soon!

 

Yaarrr Jim lad!

[EM]

 

This is basic stuff. You are either immune to the fundamentals of critical thinking and rational debate, or remarkably naive.

 

Even a nursery school kid can spot the difference between these statements:

Israel is always wrong

things you do find agreeable about Israel.

 

To be entirely clear. I do not say that Israel is always wrong, but there are precious few things agreeable about its government.

 

Actually seems to be the case then.

Dream on.

[Marooned in Maywick]

Look forward to keel hauling you and your rudderless shipwrecked arguments again soon!

 

Again?

[Gibber]

I presume that by "Israel" you mean the state and official institutions of Israel rather than Jewish culture and endeavour. Laudable examples of the latter are many and exceptional. Not much springs to mind for the former, other than (at a push) perhaps a few of their Eurovision song entries.

 

No, anything Israeli you want including the Jewish culture and endeavour that continues as a part of Israel and which that nation ensures isn't subject to curtailment from mouth breathing European's and their obsession with murdering Jews by the million along with eradicating their culture you rightly regard so highly.

 

And I would have thought you would find Livni's attitude agreeable even though you managed to miss it first time around. All from the NYT article you posted a link to.

 

But her motivational dream of a two-state peace — one at odds with the Greater Israel map on her father’s grave

 

She did not leave Likud to follow Sharon, she insists. She left “because there is a need to promote a peace process†and Likud is a party “whose ideology starts with the word ‘no.’ â€

 

“I still believe in our right to the whole land, but felt it was more important to make a compromise. We cannot solve who was right or wrong in 1948 or decide who is more just. The Palestinians can feel justice is on their side, and I can feel it is on my side. What we have to decide about is not history but the future.â€

 

“My father expressed a combination of values,†she told me, sitting in that office. “There was the understanding that the whole land of Israel was our heritage, but the other part was the need to respect others, not to control others’ lives. And because of the need to make a combination of these values, not to bring them into contradiction, I got to my own conclusion, that there is a need to divide the land.â€

 

And I would say this is pretty positive too. You really can find nothing agreeable about Israel? I think you are prejudiced.

 

"Former Supreme Court president Aharon Barak offered the following interpretation of Israel as Jewish and democratic: "The expression 'Jewish and democratic' does not imply two opposites, but rather their being complementary and harmonious... Indeed, the state is Jewish not in the religious-halachic sense, but in the sense that Jews have the right to migrate there, and that their national being is reflected in the being of the state (the matter finds expression, inter alia, in language and in days of rest). The fundamental values of Judaism are the fundamental values of the state - namely, love of man, the sanctity of life, social justice, doing what is good and right, preserving human dignity, the rule of law, etc. - values bequeathed by Judaism to the entire world... the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish state cannot be identified with Jewish law.

 

One must not forget that a sizable non-Jewish population lives in Israel. Indeed, the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish state are those same universal values that are common to democratic societies, which emerged from Jewish tradition and history."

 

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/analysis/encountering-peace-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-all-its-citizens

 

And what would they cut off in Riyadh if you tried this?

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/thousands-take-part-in-tel-aviv-gay-pride-parade-1.295610

[Gibber]

The flotilla was an attempt to bring aid to the blockaded population of Gaza. It was supported by many organisations and individuals internationally.

 

Including the BBP who sent “humanitarians†on the Mavi voyage. A nationalist group with links to the neo fascist (and it goes without saying anti-Semitic) Grey Wolves.

 

http://www.ihh.org.tr/bbp-genel-baskani-topcu-mavi-marmara-gemisini-ziyaret-etti/en

 

“...the Extreme Right is also present within Turkish immigration in Europe. This is a very interesting case of ethnic ultra-nationalism blending with religion (in this case, Islam). There are two political parties form the Extreme Right in Turkey: the Milliyetçi Hareket Partisi (MHP) and its youth wing, Bozkurtlar (Grey Wolves), and the Büyük Birlik Partisi (BBP), led by Muhsin Yazicioglu.â€

 

http://www.cepsr.com/clanek.php?ID=317

 

Ultra-nationalism blended with religion, what a humanitarian combo, perhaps Billy Bragg will write an ode to them and their selfless sacrifice.

 

 

None of these young men and women went out to die or wanted to die or was accepting of death. Each and every one of them ultimately believed that they were safe; that there was a boundary – call it a boundary of legality, a boundary of civilisation – that Israel would not cross.

 

 

So they believed they were safe and within the law and civilised norms to premeditatively attack, attempt to kidnap and/or throw overboard the IDF (who were boarding the vessel within their embargo policing duties), as well as engage in the mob lynching everyone has seen in the video footage on the news? I suppose if they are going to make such an odd assumption then we are also supposed to accept the equally odd belief that they were peace activists and humanitarians.

 

Do you still believe that?

 

Xoni, why don’t you suggest what should Israel have done instead in this instance? (I know you think the blockade should be lifted but in regards to the specific Mavi incident)

[Gibber]

The flotilla was an attempt to bring aid to the blockaded population of Gaza.

 

The Mavi didn't carry any humanitarian aid.

 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Equipment_aid_Gaza_flotilla_7-Jun-2010.htm

 

"The Challenger 1 (small yacht), the Sfendonh (small passenger boat) and the Mavi Marmara (passenger ship) did not carry any humanitarian aid"

 

How odd!

[Gibber]

Not much springs to mind for the former, other than (at a push) perhaps a few of their Eurovision song entries.

 

Here's an institution that has been around since 1949, why don't you visit their donations page instead of comparing Israel to the nazis, if you want to help that is.

 

"Givat Haviva implements activities to develop the experience of equality between Jews and Arabs living in Israel, and provides tools to this end. This is the moral foundation for achieving peace with the Palestinians and the Arab states."

 

http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/info/about.htm

[Gibber]

It gets even odder, a humanitarian ship with no humanitarian aid, the head of the humanitarian peace activists that organised the mission giving a pep talk to throw Israeli commandos overboard.

 

It really is odd I think, confusing even!

 

[EM]

... instead of comparing Israel to the nazis, ...

You really are very tiresome and repetitive with your black lies. I have already highlighted your obnoxious attempts to put such words in my mouth but you continue to do so. As previously made clear, it was you who started making statements about the Zionist state being worse than Nazis. Not my words. I spoke about extremism, not Nazism.

[Gibber]

“Zionism is as extremist an ideology as one can conceive.â€

 

Namely, as bad or worse than the Nazis, if not as bad then worse.

 

And you did it as recently as 2 weeks ago.

 

Now, you and Regev may bleat about how the IDF stormtroopers were only defending themselves,

[EM]

Namely, as bad or worse than the Nazis, if not as bad then worse.

That is your extrapolation of meaning and intent. To state that in your opinion that is my meaning and intent is one thing. To mischievously state that I have stated such when I have not is a black lie. Straw man logic as usual. To persist in doing so stinks.

 

And you did it as recently as 2 weeks ago.

I did not. Yet another Gibber lie.

Now, you and Regev may bleat about how the IDF stormtroopers were only defending themselves,

The term stormtrooper is a generic term for shock troops used to storm tactical targets and strong points. For you it presumably exclusively means blond aryans with NSDAP affiliation, but that is quite incorrect.

[Gibber]

The term stormtrooper is a generic term for shock troops used to storm tactical targets and strong points. For you it presumably exclusively means blond aryans with NSDAP affiliation, but that is quite incorrect.

 

Arf, keep back peddling, you'll be telling us next you really meant the baddies in Star Wars.

[EM]

... keep back peddling, ...

Not the case. My original and subsequent statements were quite clear and true. I see no reason why back pedalling might be suggested. You on the other hand appear to need a reverse gear, but apparently do not possess one. Tedious.

[Gibber]

No I'm pretty sure you are equating Israel with Nazis by using the word stormtrooper.

 

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stormtrooper

 

Noun

 

stormtrooper (plural stormtroopers)

 

1. A soldier trained in special infiltration tactics, especially a member of the Nazi Sturmabteilung.