University Fees

[unlinkedstudent]

Personally, I think part of the problem is that Labour encouraged the masses to attend university, many of whom simply weren't cut out for academia leading to a flood of newly qualified students without 2:1 (Hons) being left in debt without obtaining a highly paid job at the end of their studies.

 

Many people overlook the Open University which tends to offer better value and, in many instances, better coursework, materials, lectures, etc.

 

I was a mature student and did two courses with the OU followed by a part-time course at Ruskin College, Oxford where I obtained a post graduate qualification. Throughout it all, I worked.

 

My own son is at university and had three attempts at passing his A levels. Now he may be my son but, whilst I hope he does attain a 2:1, I seriously doubt it - he already had to re-take two modules and in his mid-twenties, is somewhat behind. Now had (which there wasn't and should have been) decent apprenticeships available, I can't help but think he would have been better off in the long term not getting sucked into the "University is for everyone" line.

 

Certain courses do offer "discounts" such as those in social care in order to attempt to fill the many vacancies for social workers throughout the UK. Funnily enough, when I was studying, law also offered a "discount" which, in turn, means we now have many newly qualified bods unable to secure a job as a Solicitor!

 

IMHO, by flooding the universities with the masses, not only has it meant there are not enough places to go around for UK students but it also means there are less students from abroad paying the full whack thus bringing in more funds to the universities.

 

The whole funding of universities needs to be addressed but likewise, so does the issue of student fees. By all means offer financial assistance to ensure we have qualified people for key jobs (Medical, Social Care, etc., and perhaps Engineering?) but why on earth I should subsidise someone choosing to do an arts degree beats me.

 

Labour, incidentally, abolished tax relief on university fees.

[JustMe]

unlinkedstudent wrote

Personally, I think part of the problem is that Labour encouraged the masses to attend university, many of whom simply weren't cut out for academia leading to a flood of newly qualified students without 2:1 (Hons) being left in debt without obtaining a highly paid job at the end of their studies.

I think that is a very valid point. Are we spending too much on university education and not enough on training such as apprenticeships. Yes we do as a country need university educated people and I am quite happy to see people graduating in the arts as well as less "mickey mouse" courses but do we need so many of them?. And although I wrote earlier about people being turned down for a job because they were overqualified I suspect a "bad" degree might well be worse than no degree at all.

[paulb]

mmm unlink who do you think will get cut. the talented working class student. or the rich kid with a private school education. yes increase the apprentices but a lot of jobs require you to hold a degree. but don't use it to stop the skilled and able poor students from going.

[crofter-amy]

For a long time it's been MHO that further education should be free to the most gifted students wanting to persue a course in health care, sciences, engineering and other worthwhile things. Proper aprenticeships should be available for those compatible with a trade. And we should stop pushing degrees as suitable and desirable for all.

[JAStewart]

The violence by the morons in London has done every single thing to damage any support and sympathy from the wider public. Why did they only smash up Tory HQ? Labour are just as bad.

 

I imagine that some anti-government people sort of co-opted themselves into the protest, cause everyone likes to complain.

 

But hey, I hope that those who caused the damage get caught because we don't want to have to pay for their abhorrent behaviour and ignorance.

[Guest Anonymous]

here here to the last few posts glad to see common sense is taking hold, technical college places, certainly need to increase because as has been said a poor degree is worse than no degree. especially when you consider that my ex partner was doing and HND in computer science and she was neither able or interested but when it came to the maths she was stuck on asked me for help and it was to the same standard as the maths I did in 3rd year at high school. i ended up doing a lot of the work for her and she passed with a 2-1, yet I never attended 1 lecture and only briefly skimmed the course work, and i have no interest whatsoever in computers. the last government decided to bribe the young telling them a college education is a right when it most certainly is not, it is a privilage that is very expensive and should only be available to those capable of gaining something from it. now as far as fees and the poor go I think you will find that industry wants the best employees it can get and will gladly sponsor someone that cant afford the fees but has the ability, but at present we have graduates coming out here to work that have first class honours degrees in petrolium engineering, geology etc and are completely clueless as to the laws of physics. I am constantly having to take them by the hand and lead them to the coffee shop so that the rest of us can get on with our jobs without their interferance.

we are currently shut down because one of these bright sparks had a good idea and did not run it by the rest of us before trying to implement his idea without a proper plan.

certainly the brightest and best should go to uni if they wish but for gods sake it is not the answer for everyone.

[JAStewart]

It's difficult though. It's easy for me to not have a vitriolic reaction to the education cuts because I graduated this year and therefore won't have to worry too much about it. But the system put this lad through and it was the best 4 years of my life thus far and I certainly feel a certain duty to pay tax to help put others through, especially those who are gifted but are not from a wealthy background.

 

I live a pretty fortunate life all things considered; good parents, community, education, job, lifestyle etc. It's so easy to forget how difficult these things are to come by for others.

[shetlandpeat]

It seems that students are lilly livered here too according to some. Yet not so much to take to the streets. As with any demo, you will always get the ones who take it too far, no need for violence, violence of any nature at this time in the year should be curtailed. Then any violence on the whole is wrong really, it shows that one of the party may not be as articulate enough to continue and provide intelligent retorte.

But, if we believed all the red tops told us we would be in big trouble.

 

Again, the wealthy and more comfortable preaching to those who they hold down.

 

I wonder how many clever folk will fall by the wayside because the opportunity has been with held, even more so as it will be harder to recruit from other countries due to the cap on immigration.

 

Perhaps other countries should follow suit and ban foreign students.

 

It is the foreign students that help keep the universities going, they also work hard and take their knowledge back home to help their own.

The areas that have Universities will also suffer, GOV has invested allot of money to house them and provide good conditions, it is not really "The Young Ones" today.

[NewMagnie]

hardly NM they get a low interest loan that is only paid back if their future wages excede 21k, and even at 21k they only pay back a miniscule amount. just how is this preventing someone getting a higher education.

and as JAS pointed out he only did 3 hours a week at uni in 4 year. if his course was 1 year shorter then his week would of been 3 hours longer the year before. and if my memory of uni serves me then there was not that many hours in first second and third year either.

and lets be honest a lot of the courses are a complete and utter waste of time and money so why bother with them in the first place, free up uni places for engineers, doctors, nurses, science majors etc and stop wasting money on history of art, media studies and other bullsheit courses and maybe this fees carry on would not be needed at all.

 

Its more about discouragement than outright prevention Bob - you're right, you could do the math and fiture out that the debt is worthwhile against projected future earnings - but you'd have to be financially savvy to come to that conclusion, soemthing that isn't associated with the low skilled and educated.

 

I'd agree some courses are a waste of time - you're repeating my point there - and maybe there is a case for building a grants and loans scheme that is weighed against future societal benefit. Offer higher assistance to Doctors and Engineers but less to Fine Arts is one option, but there's still the broader issue of public funding to be considered.

 

Take sport for example and the huge amounts of taxpayer money that goes into that - yes people enjoy a football match or the Commonwealth games, but what's the societal benefit?

 

My point is that the Arts, for example are enjoyed by many and provide some economic benefit but they don't get anything near what sports get.

 

I'm not going to grind on about it - its just an example. My point is, that I think there's merit in the idea, but weighing the benefit is exceedingly tricky.

 

The other side of it is, of course is to get past the tabloid assertions that 'most of this is crap' and get down to the numbers. How many graduates in 'economically ans socially useful' fields are produced each year and how's that going to be measured?

 

Harder than it looks.

[Guest Anonymous]

but you'd have to be financially savvy to come to that conclusion, soemthing that isn't associated with the low skilled and educated.

If they cant figure that simple little thing out NM should they really be going to uni in the first place.

like I said it will discourage the ones that are "only here for the beer"

and those that really are not up to higher education in the first place

[ArabiaTerra]

Why should a labourer that say gets paid 8 quid an hour to dig ditches pay for the education of someone who can then go on to earn 2, 5, 10, or even 20 times more.

Just to pick up on one thing bob said earlier. I think, back in the days of grants, the deal for the labourer was: You pay a small portion of your taxes toward further education, and, in return, your kids will have those grants available for them when they reach a suitable age.

 

Then the tories got in.

[shetlandpeat]

I don't see how retarding a section of the community and keeping them down is beneficial to the community, hence the riots in the past, the Farmers have rioted, mill workers and so on.

If you oppress folk, they will become far more dangerous. Many things in Europe that have had a catastrophic affect on all the world started from oppression and poverty.

[viblir]

Re the student tuition fees:

My opinion:

I think, the qualifications that the country needs should be on a grant basis, Sciences, technology etc, other courses that are not "required" should continue on the loan basis. This list of required qualifications should be reviewed annually and once your course has started you carry on, on the same basis.

 

There appears to be a greater number of young folk attending university from my day, which was grant funded. My now wife received her tuition fees only, living costs were borne by her and her family others on her course received full grant to cover all costs but this was means tested.

 

I went to Inverness Technical collage (now the University of the Highlands and Islands) as an apprentice and received vocational training, paid for by my Employer, others on my course financed by various training boards had to find an employer willing to finance them to continue past the 1st Year.

[tirvaluk]

Scottish students dont pay tuition fees at scottish universtities, the scottish government pays this for them. Student loans are a totallly different issue.

[Mattie]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/30/vince-cable-abstain-tuition-fees

So Vince Cable is having second thoughts?

Interesting?

How much longer will this farce of a Government last?