Deportation - Apparently A Debate Thread?? :?

[muddybay-kyebeoy]

In a case of such humanitarian importance, semantics are irrelevant. People power is showing the way forward. This is something to be proud of as a community.

[segatrix]

semantics are never irrelevant in cases such as these, as those are exactly the sort of things that may end up being used against the campaign.

 

why take the risk just to try and make the campaign sound bigger than it actually is?

 

if you don't mind if untrue statements such as "majority", "the whole of the island" etc being used, then you cannot complain if the authorities use terms such as "potential danger" as there is more potential truth in that than there is in the claim "majority" due to his prior criminal antics. if you are not willing to do things on the grounds of semantics, then there is no point campaigning and fighting the actions taken by immigration officials since the semantics of the case are paramount.

 

they claim he is a "potential danger", campaigners claim otherwise...what is this if not a fight on semantic grounds?

 

on a different subject though, don't get me started on the term "humanitarian" in this regard [/b]

[Njugle]

Casting aside semantics in favour of statistics for a moment then, the ball park figure of 7000 could be statistically compared to more than the total population demographic of Shetland for ages 15 yrs to 35 yrs old.

 

Or perhaps, slightly (400) less than the entire population demographic of Shetland between the ages of 20 and 40

 

(source "Shetland in Statistics - 2001- population by age and sex")

 

 

None of which means anything in particular other than the opinion that 7000 signatures is really quite an astonishingly high response to a socio-political situation such as this and may be perceived as a fairly conclusive measure of general opinion.

 

:tmbup;

[fish]

semantics are never irrelevant in cases such as these, as those are exactly the sort of things that may end up being used against the campaign.

 

why take the risk just to try and make the campaign sound bigger than it actually is?

 

if you don't mind if untrue statements such as "majority", "the whole of the island" etc being used, then you cannot complain if the authorities use terms such as "potential danger" as there is more potential truth in that than there is in the claim "majority" due to his prior criminal antics. if you are not willing to do things on the grounds of semantics, then there is no point campaigning and fighting the actions taken by immigration officials since the semantics of the case are paramount.

 

they claim he is a "potential danger", campaigners claim otherwise...what is this if not a fight on semantic grounds?

 

on a different subject though, don't get me started on the term "humanitarian" in this regard [/b]

 

As i have read through all or most of your contributions Its seems to me that you are trying to bring a sence of balance to some of the emotional out pouring generated in the first week of Sakchai's incarceration. a Fine sentiment, and I agree with you we need to use our heads as well as our hearts but lets not get on our own particular soap boxes at this stage, as I see it .

First we need to get Sakchai free, he is one of our community that has been wronged.

Next we need to keep the momentum going to support other poor unfortunates who do not have a community like Shetland I am pround to be a Shetlander. I have lived in many other places in the UK and Abroad, believe there are few places with the loyalty of home.

The under fives who cannot write but get swimming lessons are counted in on the census, so constitute part of the Shetland population. Many of the over 75's do not have access to computers or the mobility to get easily to the hard copy petitions, but are also part of the Shetland population. Least they were the last time I looked.

We do understand what you are trying to do If you did not set yourself up as a stirrer, folks would not be taking a pop at you.

Good luck

Fish

[segatrix]

The under fives who cannot write but get swimming lessons are counted in on the census, so constitute part of the Shetland population. Many of the over 75's do not have access to computers or the mobility to get easily to the hard copy petitions, but are also part of the Shetland population

 

as i mentioned previously, plenty of people have set up email accounts in order for their children to sign the online petition, there is every chance people will have done this for their elder relations too, so you cannot say that they definately have not signed the petition if they wanted to, or had the opportunity to.

 

as for njugle's post, it is a valid point and intersting statistics, but it still takes the approach of may be the case rather than is the case. this would imply that those that fall out of the 15-40 age group don't ahve an opinion that counts. i am not saying this is what you are saying, but simply how it could be taking if somebody wanted to do so

 

We do understand what you are trying to do If you did not set yourself up as a stirrer, folks would not be taking a pop at you.

 

in regards to this point, i would just like clarification as to what you think i am trying to do, and in what way i set myself up as a stirrer?

[Sam]

how do u know people on the e mail have not also signed the hard copy

 

how do u know that people have not signed for dead relitives or people living away?

 

the thing is you dont know and thats is why petitions need to be checked and vairfied. even that you dont know if the names on them are genuine.

 

so worrying about it is a waiste of time - i think the goverment or counciles pay no attention to them.

 

at the end of the day the only thing that will work is the actual facts - i think that fact is he was here from the age of 10 and thats all. he still has a criminal record no matter how many excuses or reasons people can think up. its facts facts facts for them.

 

only 1 opinion though but i think the peoples opinion that realy matter are actualy in London

[segatrix]

that's why i've never been a big fan of petitions and demonstrations etc, as, in all honesty, how much difference do they actually make?

 

they are very easy to ignore if you're not interested.

 

someone with a well thought out, sensible, honest and correct argument is far more difficult to push aside.

 

indeed, i can understand the thinking behind this campaign encouraging sympathisers to bombard the relevant people with emails etc. However, how many of these emails do you actually think are being read by those that matter? if, in fact, any at all.

 

these emails will, in actual fact, be read by the office staff of these people, not them themselves, if they don't just look at their email inboxs, see the vast amount of emails - all on the same subject - and just press the delete button.

 

it is the office staff that decide whether or not it is worthwhile to show these emails to the officials that they are aimed at, and, to be honest, I cannot see them bothering with these.

 

I know this from past experience of dealing with these people.

 

if i was to be brutally honest, there is potentially the chance that you could in fact prejudice these people against your cause through them feeling harassed by it all.

 

just a thought that you may want to consider

[Sam]

that's why i've never been a big fan of petitions and demonstrations etc, as, in all honesty, how much difference do they actually make?

 

they are very easy to ignore if you're not interested.

 

someone with a well thought out, sensible, honest and correct argument is far more difficult to push aside.

 

indeed, i can understand the thinking behind this campaign encouraging sympathisers to bombard the relevant people with emails etc. However, how many of these emails do you actually think are being read by those that matter? if, in fact, any at all.

 

these emails will, in actual fact, be read by the office staff of these

people, not them themselves, if they don't just look at their email inboxs, see the vast amount of emails - all on the same subject - and just press the delete button.

 

it is the office staff that decide whether or not it is worthwhile to show these emails to the officials that they are aimed at, and, to be honest, I cannot see them bothering with these.

 

I know this from past experience of dealing with these people.

 

if i was to be brutally honest, there is potentially the chance that you could in fact prejudice these people against your cause through them feeling harassed by it all.

 

just a thought that you may want to consider

 

thats why as iv said before the campain should now only use facts and try and restrain from using the sentementle lines - fine boy - piller of the community - what ever that is!

 

The goverment will only listen to facts.

in my view they are 2 good things for the case 1 is the fact he's been here since he was 10 and the other is he has had a disclosure scotland pass.

 

moaning how outsiders came in and took him (an other outsider) out of shetland is just a farces - thats they way they do it - thats a fact of life living in the uk.

 

if they want you there is one place most people will be in the middle of the night - thats in there bed! its a common practice, so moaning about it is a waste of time and effort.

[Ichorus]

how do you know that people have not set up lots of e mail addresses?

 

how do u know people on the e mail have not also signed the hard copy

 

how do u know that people have not signed for dead relitives or people living away?

 

the thing is you dont know and thats is why petitions need to be checked and vairfied. even that you dont know if the names on them are genuine.

 

so worrying about it is a waiste of time - i think the goverment or counciles pay no attention to them.

 

at teh end of the day the only think that will work is the actual facts - i think that fact is he was here from the age of 10 and thats all. he still has a criminal record no matter how many excuses or reasons people can think up. nor using 'hes a fine boy' lines work as the people in London dont care what others say or do - its facts facts facts for them.

 

just hope they think hes no danger just now or if he is likley to have another moment of madness in 5 years time, and that he has been here Since he was 10.

 

only 1 opinion though but i think the peoples opinion that realy matter are actualy in London

 

personally i dont see any point in people debating this. the signatures have been attained by people going round with them or in shops. people see whats going on. so no one would have been messing with it. and the Epetition is a seperate entity. plus if the "the people in london" could check it. Facts may not be being said by us. we can say "hes a fine boy", which he is. The facts are coming from the main people in the campaign and by Sahchai's lawyer and representatives. you dont need to come in here and mention what us people who are supporting the campaign/Sahchai should say or only talk about facts. heres a fact: hes a fine boy

[Sam]

i know he is! im not saying anything difrent.

[trout]

ok.

 

Lets all take a step back and breath. Lets not have a repeat of last week - thank you. Lets try and get this place back to some sort of equilibrium!

[Ichorus]

ok.

 

Lets all take a step back and breath. Lets not have a repeat of last week - thank you. Lets try and get this place back to some sort of equilibrium!

 

maybe you dont get the tone of us. Im certainly not trying to make things uneasy, we are merely having a debate. my addition to the debate is i believe their really shouldnt be one if people are trying to discredit this campaign on the basis of other peoples comments about Sakchai.

So what if we say hes a nice boy. The important stuff is being said by the important people in this campaign. We all play an important part, but people like DavieG are the main ones fronting this, so if they were going round just saying "oh but hes a nice boy, come on send back eh we miss him like." instead of stating the facts then i might agree with sams comment.

 

Dicussing it is just something that will have to happen. I think OFficals coming on here reading this forum would find it very very strange if their was no opposition to this campaign, because maybe theres the possibility that everyone that knows him likes him, but there would be some people who dont know him and dont know the facts that would come on here saying "get rid of him hes an illegal immigrant who commited a crime"

 

WHICH the Illegal immigrant part is FALSE. Im in full support of Him and this campaign dont get my words muddled i know it can be easy. ive done it before reading other peoples comments.

 

im against the Debating, but thats my opinion, and i will comment in here saying i dont like it, but i wont be offensive or get the mood lowered.

 

Gutted i missed the Glasgow protest/awareness raising, i had terrible sleep and didnt wake in time

[islandhopper]

The goverment will only listen to facts.

How happy you must be, if you can still believe in this. I am sure that The Government would not listen to a Delting fisherman or the Aith shop keeper telling them the truth about what is going on in Shetland today.

 

Their 'truth', their 'fact' is the plain figure - that are some 7000 Shetlanders, potential voters who have shown their ability to move the national press and media, MSPs/MPs/MEPs and other makers of public opionion through a unique campain.

 

Well, I do not say that everything should be or is allowed. We have to stick to the 'truth' or at least to 'the basical facts', but you have to repeat them, to repeat, to repeat ... thus you have to hammer it into the brain of the one and only deciding official (that's not the government for the moment) that he can't oversee and overhear your voices - at least not without putting his own job and the public standing of 'his' government at risk.

[Ichorus]

The goverment will only listen to facts.

How happy you must be, if you can still believe in this. I am sure that The Government would not listen to a Delting fisherman or the Aith shop keeper telling them the truth about what is going on in Shetland today.

 

Their 'truth', their 'fact' is the plain figure - that are some 7000 Shetlanders, potential voters who have shown their ability to move the national press and media, MSPs/MPs/MEPs and other makers of public opionion through a unique campain.

 

Well, I do not say that everything should be or is allowed. We have to stick to the 'truth' or at least to 'the basical facts', but you have to repeat them, to repeat, to repeat ... thus you have to hammer it into the brain of the one and only deciding official (that's not the government for the moment) that he can't oversee and overhear your voices - at least not without putting his own job and the public standing of 'his' government at risk.

 

well said. That is a good point about the potential 7000+ people that might not vote....think in eyes of Government that might be the strongest part, which is sad. Government do still listen to petitions though.

[NewMagnie]

Getting interesting now...

 

I don't really believe the government take much notice of petitions, unless they're from the CBI or the board of Halliburton.

 

this thread's all about a particular case - and well done to those of you getting behind it - but there's a broader principle at stake, which is, the government's commitment to retaining the vote of Daily Mail reading rednecks by gratuitiously trampling on the rights of anyone with a dusky epidermis and a great granny born south of Dover.

 

Now, bearing this in mind, the issue of whether young Sakchai is supported by 1/3 or slightly more than half of the population is something of a moot point - we don't get a vote. I take sega's point about how Shetland's 'majority' or 'community' are represented as being wholly behind the cause du jour, this tends to rip my knitting as well, (especially when its presented as supporting a cause I don't agree with)

 

the wider issue here, is the extent to which issues within our community (yes, I know I don't live there anymore) can be defined by a government 500 + miles away. Don't want to come over all SNP or, god help me, Shetland Movement here but there's something offensive about coppers being flown in from south to whisk away a community member (there's a few more I might have wished they'd whisked away but that's another story)

 

Its a vexed issue. In this case, following a display of moral outrage by a 'significant proportion' (better sega?) of the community based on a commitment to social justice (I hope, although personal and parochial considerations have to be born in mind also) I'd be tempted to say that a community should have a vote when it comes to this kind of thing.

 

In other cases though, that might be playing right inot the hands of BNP f**kwits weho'd delight in using something like that to bash immigrant/refugee communities.

 

Perhaps total seccession though, is the only answer, given that the current govt and it's spiritual successors are unlikely to move away from the 'hang 'em, flog 'em send 'em back' stance so cheerfully embraced by the present incumbent of No 10 and his bullet heided jock lickspittle.