Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[skaterboy]

If i broke into your house and then complained you attacked me and so was justified in shooting you, would i be a madman

 

gorgo me aald mate du is a madman, completely barmy some would say.

don't you realise this is what has been happening in britain for years.

 

British, European, US, Russian etc etc warships have been boarding vessels in international waters for years and if you read the document that you linked to in its entirety you will find that what they and the Israeli's did yesterday is perfectly legal.

[skaterboy]

Hamas is legally elected so Israel should not be allowed to target it's members.

 

Hamas have declared war on Israel.

 

look up the word war in the dictionary, then explain why Israel should not target members of hamas.

[gavva]

The only way that this will ever recieve a peaceful solution is when both sides lay down their weapons and sit down and talk. Re educating their citizens, instead of promoting war and hate promote peace and support diversity.

Examples are:

 

Ireland- Protestant and Catholic: A coalition government with all peoples living together in harmony.

India pre self rule- Hindu and Muslim: Give both sides a state which is self ruled.

 

In an age when we in the West are encouraged and infact when laws are being changed to promote diversity and anything less has become an infringement on human rights. Why do our governments continue to support governments and nations who do not recognise diversity?

[Claudias]

^ ^ ^

The IRA declared war on the UK but,at present,are co-operating peacefully with the rest of the parties. Hamas,like the IRA,declared war because it was been victimised in it's own country. Get the settlers out of the occupied land and peace should ensue.

[Gibber]

hey gibber - http://www.imo.org/dynamic/mainframe.asp?topic_id=1514&doc_id=7602

 

There are international laws governing the high seas, but of course Israel is a law unto its own it would appear..........

 

Thanks! There are indeed laws governing the high seas but I knew that already, what law are you claiming Israel has violated? There is many a precedent of military boarding of vessels, where exactly has Israel broken the law in this case? (*edit as skaterrboy has already pointed out)

 

And why don't you address this?

 

The blockade is to stop munitions entering Gaza which are then targeted at Israeli civilians. It is also being used to weaken the rulers of the state run by Hamas who's intent is the destruction of Israel.

 

Imagine if you can that you are a person who holds the position of not being in favor of Israeli citizens being attacked by rockets. If you want the blockade lifted what system do you propose to employ that ensures no addition arms or components or anything facilitating this end comes into Gaza?

 

If you're anti blockade I'm sure you (or Amnesty) have an alternative that ensures the safety of Israeli citizens.

[Gibber]

^ ^ ^

The IRA declared war on the UK but,at present,are co-operating peacefully with the rest of the parties. Hamas,like the IRA,declared war because it was been victimised in it's own country. Get the settlers out of the occupied land and peace should ensue.

 

Can you show me the text of the IRA's declaration of War? I'd love to see it.

 

You realise you pressed submit after you typed this right?

[xoni]

A proclamation was posted in public places throughout Ireland announcing the IRA's declaration of war on England. This proclamation was written by Joseph McGarrity

 

Excerpt from the ultimatum:

 

I have the honour to inform you that the Government of the Irish Republic, having as its first duty towards its people the establishment and maintenance of peace and order here, demand the withdrawal of all British armed forces stationed in Ireland. The occupation of our territory by troops of another nation and the persistent subvention here of activities directly against the expressed national will and in the interests of a foreign power, prevent the expansion and development of our institution in consonance with our social needs and purposes, and must cease.

 

The Government of the Irish Republic believe that a period of four days is sufficient notice for your Government to signify its intentions in the matter of the military evacuation and for the issue of your Declaration of Abdication in respect of our country. Our Government reserves the right of appropriate action without further notice if upon the expiration of this period of grace, these conditions remain unfulfilled.

[Gibber]

The blockade is to stop munitions entering Gaza which are then targeted at Israeli civilians. It is also being used to weaken the rulers of the state run by Hamas who's intent is the destruction of Israel.

 

Imagine if you can that you are a person who holds the position of not being in favor of Israeli citizens being attacked by rockets. If you want the blockade lifted what system do you propose to employ that ensures no addition arms or components or anything facilitating this end comes into Gaza?

 

If you're anti blockade I'm sure you (or Amnesty) have an alternative that ensures the safety of Israeli citizens.

 

Have you come up with any thoughts on this yet Xoni?

[xoni]

The blockade is to stop munitions entering Gaza which are then targeted at Israeli civilians. It is also being used to weaken the rulers of the state run by Hamas who's intent is the destruction of Israel.

 

Imagine if you can that you are a person who holds the position of not being in favor of Israeli citizens being attacked by rockets. If you want the blockade lifted what system do you propose to employ that ensures no addition arms or components or anything facilitating this end comes into Gaza?

 

If you're anti blockade I'm sure you (or Amnesty) have an alternative that ensures the safety of Israeli citizens.

 

Have you come up with any thoughts on this yet Xoni?

 

As previously mentioned and with reference to other conflicts we can draw similes from IE the IRA, peace talks and a laying down of arms on all sides.

 

Have you come up with any thoughts on this yet Gibber?

A proclamation was posted in public places throughout Ireland announcing the IRA's declaration of war on England. This proclamation was written by Joseph McGarrity.

 

 

I admire your ability to just ignore facts rather than acknowledge you may be wrong as we all are on occasion , very political!.

[Gibber]

Have you come up with any thoughts on this yet Gibber?

A proclamation was posted in public places throughout Ireland announcing the IRA's declaration of war on England. This proclamation was written by Joseph McGarrity.

 

Yes, the IRA had to pretend to be the government of Eire to declare war. Hamas are in reality the government of Gaza.

 

As previously mentioned and with reference to other conflicts we can draw similes from IE the IRA, peace talks and a laying down of arms on all sides.

 

And as I've previously mentioned Hamas are not a part of the peace process. These differences mean I would like an answer to this, you say you are anti-war, Hamas is pro war with Israel, how is bolstering their position in any way stopping war?

 

The blockade is to stop munitions entering Gaza which are then targeted at Israeli civilians. It is also being used to weaken the rulers of the state run by Hamas who's intent is the destruction of Israel.

 

Imagine if you can that you are a person who holds the position of not being in favor of Israeli citizens being attacked by rockets. If you want the blockade lifted what system do you propose to employ that ensures no addition arms or components or anything facilitating this end comes into Gaza?

 

If you're anti blockade I'm sure you (or Amnesty) have an alternative that ensures the safety of Israeli citizens.

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

skater boy, gibber I stand corrected the boarding of ships of any or no flag is allowed in the fight against terrorism,smuggling and piracy etc,etc.

There are special regulations regarding if its terrotorial sea or high seas.

 

I think there are of course major faults on both sides, but I think Israel especially does not do itself any favours.

The entire situation is unsustainable in its present form and Israels tactics must be responsible for nurturing another generation of hate in young muslims.

Anither big round of blood and tears will be the result yet again.

 

I am not taking any sides on this one but Israel are in continued breach of international law, it the kids who are the victoms in all this.

[xoni]

While no one has an answer to that question at this point it is still painfully clear the blockade isn't the soloution , it hasnt done a thing to weaken Hamas quite the opposite and simpy served to heighten the suffering and poverty. Now Hamas have said ( their quote ) they havent fired rockets for over 12 months (Israel say as recent as yesterday there were reports of rocket fire ) its 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the othere here! Hamas said they will act peacefully if the blockade is removed so shouldnt this be the first place to start?

[Gibber]

While no one has an answer to that question at this point it is still painfully clear the blockade isn't the soloution , it hasnt done a thing to weaken Hamas quite the opposite and simpy served to heighten the suffering and poverty.

 

I would have thought an increase in the amount of goods let into the strip while Israel and Egypt maintain their blockade to stop the munitions would be a better starting point if you are truly anti-war. The blockade has stopped weaponry coming into Gaza, if the blockade is lifted weaponry will freely enter Gaza.

 

Unlike the IRA's declaration of war, Hamas' intent isn't to liberate the Palestinians but to destroy Israel. If the British had complied with the IRA's demands would the IRA still be at war with Britain with the intent to exterminate the British?

 

Israel removed its army and its settlers from Gaza a long time ago, did that stop the rockets? no, Cast Lead stopped the rockets. Ending the blockade gives them more rockets. By all means give the people a level of comfort but why arm Hamas at the same time?

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^^ I think one of the problems here is that while Israel removed it's troops and the settlements from Gaza, they then went on to build the security barrier around the settlements in the West Bank, effectively annexing large parts of it.

 

I honestly cannot see any solution working until the Israeli's retreat back to the '67 borders removing all the illegal settlements in the process.

 

Perhaps this could be done in return for all the surrounding Arab countries granting full citizenship and rights to the Palestinians still living in refugee camps outside Israel/Palestine. After all there are children living in these camps whose grandparents have never set foot in Palestine. Surely calling these people refugees is ridiculous given the time that has passed since their ancestors fled the motherland. In any other part of the world, these people would be fully integrated nth generation migrants by now.

 

The only reason they are still considered refugees is as a political tactic to hammer Israel with.

[Gibber]

I would have thought an increase in the amount of goods let into the strip while Israel and Egypt maintain their blockade to stop the munitions would be a better starting point if you are truly anti-war. The blockade has stopped weaponry coming into Gaza, if the blockade is lifted weaponry will freely enter Gaza.

 

Any thoughts on this yet Xoni? I'm assuming STWC's interest on humanitarian aid getting in is about the same as the flotilla's, namely they could have unloaded this stuff through the UN or Red Cross but chose to pursue their main objective of confrontation and provocation.

 

Do you know that if humanitarian aid were increased to an accecptable level would the Stop the War Coalition be in favour of a blockade of munitions to stop Hamas accumulating arms?

 

Do you know what Stop the War Coalition's position is on the defensive Israeli missile system, Iron Dome? I would have thought that an organisation that claims to be humanitarian and anti-war would be very much in favour of such a device that prevents rockets landing on a civilian population and might prevent an operation such as Cast Lead happening again.

 

I've a hunch that they aren't in favor of this system any more than they are in stopping Hamas stockpiling arms, perhaps you could clarify?