Davie P
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Posts posted by Davie P
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Yes indeed @Windwalker. One of the challenges is that referendums are not ‘native’ to the UK/devolved parliaments’ legislative systems in that they’re not particularly regularly used so have few legal precedents, and each time they are used they need the rules to be agreed beforehand.
Another challenge is that ‘democracy’ itself is a loosely defined principle rather than an off-the-shelf set of processes.
It all sets the scene for claims and counter claims that referendums, their results and subsequent processes are either democratic or undemocratic. It’s understandable that the public might see it like that (most people don’t have an interest in the finer points of legislative systems) but it’s shameful when politicians, who are elected and paid to understand legislative systems, manipulate and deceive the public regarding referendums - Brexit was a prime example of how to use a referendum to debase a legislative system and manipulate the public which has led directly to another referendum which may well lead to the demise of the union that Brexit sought to embolden. It’s almost poetic!
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This is an interesting and quite readable article that goes into detail about the legalities https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/second-referendum-scottish-independence
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My understanding is that the Scottish Parliament can hold an advisory referendum on anything it wishes. The Scottish Parliament would only need approval for a legally binding Independence referendum because the constitutional position of the UK is a 'reserved' matter for Westminster.
It's quite a distinct difference and would need to be made abundantly clear to avoid the post-Brexit referendum fiasco.
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Shetland aims high in wake of Brexit - an interesting article from The Herald I saw on the national sources news section. It’s quite a good summary of Shetland’s post Brexit economy
- Windwalker and Roachmill
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This is a fascinating article if you're interested in the Shetland Bus or modern covert naval operations - https://warontherocks.com/2020/12/the-modern-shetland-bus-the-lure-of-covert-maritime-vessels-for-great-power-competition/
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I noted that in this article from 7th Jan Grieg's Managing Director said they "had successfully sent salmon to both Ireland and mainland Europe this week.... We have experienced delays of up to 24 hours due to congestion in the ports but we expect these delays to ease in the coming weeks.”
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Yes indeed @Windwalker. I'm quite interested in politics but I felt iill-equipped to make an informed decision on Brexit due to the amount of conflicting information in circulation, and most other people I spoke in any depth about it were in the same boat. TBH I was quite suspicious of folk's motives if they proclaimed to be absolutely sure one way or the other!
I did find it helpful to discuss it here on Shetlink though as there are many people with different views and discussion was often around the Shetland context, and I find it helpful to have my opinion challenged - all too often discussion happens in groups or media sources that have already made up their minds and it just attracts people with the same opinions, thus bolstering the single point of view.
At the end of the day, I suppose any vote comes down to (a) how satisfied you are with the status quo and (b) how willing you are to roll the dice in the hope something better will emerge if you vote for a change.
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23 minutes ago, Roachmill said:
I find it hard not to acknowledge that, although it was a democratic process, there was no end of manipulation carried out at the highest levels (e.g. big data being used to manipulate us plebs and the same old monumental smear campaigns trotted out against political parties). To ignore that is only begging for the same to happen again and again.
This is a key point. A democracy goes beyond just votes. It requires the voting population to have access to accurate information and an understanding of what it is they are voting for. In my humble opinion, neither box was ticked for the Brexit referendum. It was a reasonable gauge of public opinion at that point in time perhaps.
However, I feel the discourse and subsequent election was influenced by the misinformation which came after the referendum along the lines that anyone who questioned Brexit, preached caution or spoke in opposition to the 'will of the people' was fundamentally undemocratic. In some instances Brexit supporters might as well have been chanting 'stop the steal'. This undoubtedly influenced the election which eventually pushed Brexit over the finish line.
So it was democratic in principle, but a debased version! Let's hope we learn from it.
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4 hours ago, Windwalker said:
My general concern about democracy is to do with both Brexit and Scottish independence and continued unjustified quotes that they were undemocratic made on these pages. If folk want to make these statements, they should at least back them up.
Agreed. It's no better than Trump supporters repeatedly claiming the vote was rigged without presenting any evidence.
Democracy has its flaws, but as Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
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42 minutes ago, Windwalker said:
My issue with not accepting democracy was aimed at those who keep saying it was not done democratically, whilst at the same time unwilling to provide any proof of that.
I'll take the bait on this
The fundamental problem with the referendum was that it was an indicative vote, not a legally binding vote. The legislation was clear on that. If the Tories had wished for a legally binding vote they would have likely had to have sought parliamentary agreement on a more robust legislative mechanism such as a 2/3 'supermajority' rather than a simple majority.
The Tories then tried to bypass parliament claiming that the referendum was in fact legally binding when it demonstrably wasn't, and the High Court had to intervene to force the decision back to parliament.
Bun-fights were then had and years were wasted, but then the Tories won the election on a Brexit ticket and Brexit went ahead due to their majority in parliament.
It was the same result in the end and was achieved through democratic means, but the fact remains that the Tories tried to illegally bypass our democratic processes the first time around.
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I should imagine the whole referendum legislation thing will end up as a footnote in history, but with a Scottish Independence Referendum on the horizon we'd do well to learn the lessons on how not to do things.
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@George. I asked you some straight questions about accusations you made but I have no idea what your reply is even about.
You've repeated the same posts about Westminster being undemocratic over multiple threads over several years and have regularly been proven to be posting false information, and have consistently refused to provide any evidence, explanation or engage in discussion about the points you raise. Surely there comes a time to just stop?
So let's have another bash at a discussion. Perhaps you could answer the following questions in response to the points your raised...
5 hours ago, Davie P said:We joined the EEC in 1973 under a democratically elected government and with broad cross-party support. Our membership was ratified by a referendum in 1975 with circa 67% of voters in support. How much more democratic do you want?
The government won a [Brexit] referendum and election with new trade agreements as key pledges. They then start negotiating the promised trade agreements. In this instance too, how much more democratic do you want?!
Perhaps you'd like to offer some detail as to why you don't think the two examples you noted aren't democratic, or offer an alternative process that's more democratic than referendums and elections?
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49 minutes ago, George. said:
I wonder just how democratical it was for Westminster to inflict the E.E.C. upon us C.1961?
We joined the EEC in 1973 under a democratically elected government and with broad cross-party support. Our membership was ratified by a referendum in 1975 with circa 67% of voters in support. How much more democratic do you want?
57 minutes ago, George. said:Boris, regardless of whether we want anything to do with the Trans-Pacific Partnership - but that's what some of us call democracy.
The government won a referendum and election with new trade agreements as key pledges. They then start negotiating the promised trade agreements. In this instance too, how much more democratic do you want?!
Perhaps you'd like to offer some detail as to why you don't think the two examples you noted aren't democratic, or offer an alternative process that's more democratic than referendums and elections?
Could it be that the election / Brexit / Independence referendums didn't go your way so you're claiming things aren't democratic?
For the record, I was on the 'losing' side for Brexit, Independence and I've never voted for a party that has had a UK majority, but that's how democracy works.
1 hour ago, George. said:Ted Heath and what he did to us in 1972?
I'm intrigued. What did Ted Heath 'do to us'?
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@George. perhaps you could explain your point(s) about Westminster rather than just repeating it every few posts on every thread related to politics. Simply saying Westminster isn't democratic doesn't cut it.
In this instance, do you expect a democratically elected government to ask your permission before it negotiates trade agreements? Negotiating new trade agreements was one of the key pledges of both the Brexit referendum and subsequent general election. The government won both - ipso facto negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership is democratic.
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This is an interesting article that was linked to from a Shetland Times letter (the letter was about kids walking on frozen lochs).
https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2009/11/08/history-the-turnbull-tragedies
A friend was telling me it was an oft-repeated story in their house when they were growing up.
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On 29/01/2021 at 10:31, Roachmill said:
I heard Boris came up to appease us heathens yesterday - what did he actually (besides not staying at home, not protecting the NHS and not saving lives) do?
According to the Guardian, this was the plan
"Downing Street briefed the Sun that the visit was “a rescue mission to save the UK” in the face of sustained opinion poll support for independence. It was also “a charm offensive” to a Scotland in which the prime minister’s ratings are terrible, and where many – including in his own party – see him as something of a liability."
I'm sure there's a joke to be had about 'charm' and 'offensive'...
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I'm on Vodafone, and it seems to be a relatively good coverage (apart from in my house!)
My understanding is that the SIC have a corporate contract with Vodafone so that swung my decision. My hunch was that the SIC must have done the research/applied some pressure to make sure the service in rural areas is OK? However, my hunches have been wrong in the past!
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Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately my old brick of a mobile probably won't be able to get a software update any time soon! But if Wificall an SMS works on an iPhone then I might investigate taking the plunge on a new mobile.
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I agree that it's an important decision @Muckle Oxters and the facts folk need to help them make an informed choice are too often distorted for short term political gain and/or people wilfully misleading others to tip the balance toward their preference. It's one of the fundamental problems with a referendum - asking people to vote on something critical but not doing enough to make sure they have the information they need, and there's a challenge in how information is presented and by whom - true neutrality is almost impossible.
I find the FullFact website to be fairly neutral and has some interesting articles on Scottish Independence https://fullfact.org/scotland/
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Thanks @George. The problem isn't the actual mobile 'phone' signal which I get through the Wifi (the network on my phone comes up as 'Vodafone WifiCall'), the big irritation is that SMS text messages don't work over the Wifi.
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I'm pleased to read that there's plans to improve the mobile network in Shetland, although it remains to be seen to what extent.
https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2021/01/27/new-mobile-masts-to-boost-4g-coverage/
I get a sniff of a mobile signal in one window in my house. It wasn't really a problem (I'm old fashioned enough to prefer a landline) until banks and many other services started using SMS codes for identity confirmation, so if I want to check my balance I have to wander up the hill waving my phone around until I get the text.
I've tried the Vodafone Sure Signal boxes which use my broadband for routing mobile phonecalls but it doesn't do SMS, and I've had two stop working on me. And there's something fundamentally irritating about having to buy expensive boxes from Vodafone and use my own broadband to make up for the inadequacies of their coverage. It's not as if I get money off my contract for not getting a useable mobile service at home.
So, fingers crossed.....
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Is Wednesday still a public holiday?
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6 minutes ago, blue beetle said:
Scotland has a huge hole in their finances which has to be topped up by the English every year. Which is also where the money came from via the EU for all the so called benefits of membership we keep hearing about.
With respect, this is a rather simplistic political take on what is a complex economic relationship. From what you're saying, England is basically subsidising Scotland and (up till now) the EU. However, there are many factors to consider - spending per capita, cost of living, GDP, budget deficits - you name it. Some of this is know, but much of it is conjecture.
Similar arguments were made from Brexit, but the fact of the matter is that the true financial picture would only start to become clear once the divorce negations have taken place and the various and independent economies have (re)established. The true picture wouldn't be know for years.
11 minutes ago, blue beetle said:The SNP are not keen on salmon farming , oil, gas, fracking, or fishing. except to give away our grounds to the EU. They seem to want to turn our farm land into some sort of theme park.
I'm not sure I follow. Why/how are the SNP 'not keen' on Scotland's major industries?
14 minutes ago, blue beetle said:Our heavy industries are a shadow of their former selves .
...and have been in decline for many decades in many western countries, largely as a result of cheaper labour and production costs elsewhere in the world. It would be a push to blame the SNP for that.
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I see Sturgeon has announced a referendum in May if SNP wins the upcoming election.
It seems likely that the SNP will will the election, and most polls indicate a majority of voters are in favour of independence too. I expect the Brexit bunfight and Sturgeon's better handling of Covid than Johnson will further swing the scales. Independence has never looked more likely.
I'm heartened to note that it is being promoted as an 'advisory' referendum from the outset. Brexit was also advisory but many pro-Brext politicians either failed to understand that or purposely tried to mislead people. So even if the referendum returns a 'yes' majority, it'll only be the beginning of a process....
It'll be an interesting few months if you're interested in politics!
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I disagree, we've had some very capable (and some not so capable) PMs in recent decades.
"Clown" is subjective and "bigoted" is harsh but "corrupt" is a serious accusation. Do you really think every PM in recent years was corrupt?
Scottish Independence Referendum 2021
in National & International News
Posted · Edited by Davie P
I'll take up the challenge of refuting the claim, but with a dose of devil's advocacy thrown in.
The tension inherent with a democratic government is that from a philosophical point of view, giving people a direct say in how their government operates is generally considered a good thing, but from a logistical point of view there needs to be parameters and limitations.
The ultimate form of philosophical democracy is giving every member of society a direct, equal and ongoing say in every issue that affects them. From a logistical point of view, that's at best impractical, hence why we've arrived at the compromise of 'representative democracy' whereby the population delegate authority to MPs who are elected via regular popularity votes.
Talking very broadly here, but... populations change their minds regularly, are easily swayed, vote based on emotion and instinct, and generally think in more short term and individualistic way than members of parliamentary parties built on core principles and long term collectivist policies. Giving the population more regular and/or direct say could (would?) lead to a less stable and less effective form of democracy.
If, as a population, we decide to have regular referendums on the sovereign status of our country then in my opinion we must accept the upheaval, instability and short-term-ism that may result. If we agree to have another independence referendum now after 6 years, should we agree to have referendums on our sovereign status every six years? And if not, why not? After-all, in a perfect democracy we'd all vote every day on every subject.
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Bit of a footnote here... over the past century or so democracy has been considered by many people to be unquestionably the best form of governance, but for much of modernity, democracy was considered with great suspicion - Plato warned that democracy was one step from anarchy.