Scottish Independance?

[Ally]

No, I don't think I'm getting anything wrong, I'm merely posing questions. The UK is an independent nation and so it remains. Your suspicions about whether we would or would not have gotten into an illegal war are purely hypothetical, unless we were prepared to write something into a new Scottish constitution that would somehow prevent such an occurrence in the future (not a bad idea, but a tad simplistic I fear). Unless, of course, you are suggesting the people south, namely The English are a war mongering nation?

 

The problem, as far as I can see, with independence and voting for the SNP is that you have to look beyond the political opinions of such a party (which, in general, I agree with) and look at the far reaching constitutional impact.

 

What I’m trying to say is that, if we’re prepared to hark back to 1320 for some justification to modern scottish independance, then we should also look forward. There has been a prevailing left-wing ideology in Scotland for sometime, but why must this always be the case? Is it not unfeasible that a new breed of Scottish politics would arise and, on a smaller scale, emulate exactly what has gone on in Westminster? Then we’d just be a smaller country (and less important on a global scale as smaller countries usually are) run by the same kind of people, which is exactly what I think would happen.

 

The point I’m trying to make is that the British Isles has a population rich in variety, who should not be pigeonholed based on whereabouts in the UK they happen to be born. If you’re raised in Britain, you’ll have had a broadly similar upbringing, regardless of weather you’re from the north or the south. The toff in Edinburgh will have more in common with the toff in Islington, than he will with the bin man in Glasgow. Outwith sporting events and being proud of where I came from, I see no other point to nationalism whatsoever. I remain totally unconvinced that Scotland’s politicians would be any greater than the bunch of crooks running the country at the moment.

[Zorro]

Sorry this is short. We're just going out to the pictures. I'll finish later.

 

I'm suggesting the United Kingdom is a warmongering nation, the English I have no interest in.

[Ally]

Sorry this is short. We're just going out to the pictures. I'll finish later.

 

I'm suggesting the United Kingdom is a warmongering nation, the English I have no interest in.

 

ok... but, don't equate my inherant dislike of any form of nationalism as me condoning the war! I was on anti war marches in Glasgow AND Edinburgh and would argue that it was Nationalism (pride and jingoisim) that allowed that sphincter to get into office in the first place.

 

Anyway, hometime. Enjoy the flick.

[Njugle]

No i don't.....[i'm just saving on space ]......... at the moment

 

One point though, given a resurgence of the D of A, the politicians would be wholly subservient to the people, as it should be.

 

On a sociological level i totally agree with you Ally, but one of the most relevant aspects of a conceptual independance is that of industrial policy.

 

Without bogging myself down in all-encompassing specifics our place in Europe is but one example of a case for independance.

 

Alledgedly, several years ago mr Blair was party to the greater picture of Europe in which Germany would handle manufacturing and heavy industry, france agriculture, spain fishing and shipbuilding and the UK was proposed as an administrative centre, at that time Blair was angling for the presidency of a european confederacy. So, in this process of rationalising the major strongpoints of each Union member Scotland was lumped in with England and while giving up any emphasis on agriculture for england, he also gave up all emphasis on fishing for Scotland. Though our scottish MPs let us down somewhat at that time, i do not believe that the outcome would have been anything near the same were Scotland considered separately, in this great equation, from England. Yes our fishermen are rogues in their own way, but the end result was that while our fleet was heavily restricted and decommissioned, the Spanish and Portuguese were funded to manufacture newer, bigger more ruthless and greedier vessels into an industrial culture which is less policed than our own was and provides poorer conditions for the employees therein. Whilst various other fleets also remained in UK waters fishing under different and at times more rational rules than those issued from London. One example.

 

In a summary, devolution in it's truer forms makes more sense for industry, but also - climate, sociology, health-care and international consideration.

 

I don't advocate any kind of "rift" or split, i just think that major decisions made regarding regional issues should be made by those nearer the regions involved.

 

Also - And none of this means that i accept or advocate the overall policies of the SNP, they are but one vision of independence, overall independance within a global economy is for the people to decide and politicise, not just one party.

 

Sheesh, got carried away again

[trumptonriots]

If a bunch of badly dressed potato farmers from *insert name of former eastern bloc country that has changed names several times in last century or two* can have their own country, then why can't we?

[Yowe]

We'd only end up fighting amongst ourselves

[niceday]

I am not a nationalist but I can see it happening this century - it seems to be the trend in many parts of the world. The current constitutional settlement may not be sustainable (the West Lothian question cannot simply be wished away).

 

A key test will come if there is a right wing Thatcherite government at Westminster (and before you all start - for all its faults New Labour are actually quite a centrist party, other than on foreign policy and crime) and a liberal-social democratic government in Edinburgh. Depending on how it is managed (and the present Conservative leader appears to be at best indifferent, at worse antagonistic, towards Scottish interests) there could be sufficient tension to lead to independence.

[ArabiaTerra]

We should find out soon enough anyway. The SNP only have to win once, Labour\Tories and the LibDems have to win every time.

[JustMe]

We should find out soon enough anyway. The SNP only have to win once, Labour\Tories and the LibDems have to win every time.

 

Thats not so........even if the SNP were to win a majority in the Scottish Parliament I think they would soon discover that the power over independence still lies with Westminster. Indeed they might well discover that devolved powers can quite legally be taken back and perhaps would be if the SNP or any Scottish government displeased the Westminster Parliament or the Civil Service mandarins who really run things anyway.

[McFly]

Indeed they might well discover that devolved powers can quite legally be taken back and perhaps would be if the SNP or any Scottish government displeased the Westminster Parliament or the Civil Service mandarins who really run things anyway.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

Legal, maybe, I don't know.

 

Productive, certainly not.

 

I think that would be a very rash move on Westminster's part if the SNP were to win a majority at Holyrood. It would surely prove finally that central government in London have only contempt for any real form of democracy and drive even more people towards the nationalist camp.

[JustMe]

McFly wrote

think that would be a very rash move on Westminster's part if the SNP were to win a majority at Holyrood. It would surely prove finally that central government in London have only contempt for any real form of democracy and drive even more people towards the nationalist camp.

 

Contempt for any real form of democracy?........sounds about right. Labour might be happy with devolution but they want those Scottish seats at Wesminster. The Conservatives would of course be happy for Labour not to have those Scottish seats but they could not allow the dissolution of the Union as maintaining the United Kingdom is one of their policies. Either way I think that a nationalist government in Edinburgh would not be able to gain Independence.

[Jordan]

I'm going to vote SNP solely because they say they will abolish student loans and bring back grants.

[ArabiaTerra]

You miss the point. To get the SNP to sign up for Devolution in the first place, Donald Dewer conceded that if the Nats got a majority in Holyrood they could call a referendum and the result would be binding. I believe it's written into the Devolution agreement.

[McFly]

This article from the Sunday Herald says it ain't so ArrabiaTerra.

 

It would appear that setting such a referendum is a matter reserved for Westminster, as are all constitutional changes.

[Styles]

I usually vote for the SNP, but im not that keen on independence. As I think the SNP would do what is actually best for Scotland and not what their masters down south tell them to do. Think more poeple should think about voteing for SNP for this factor even if they dont want independence as thet would be a seperate referendom.