Blueprint for Education Update - Closures Again - Aith

[Shoogler]

Sorry - previous comment was response to Spinner

[Guest CyprusPluto]

There is sense in a lot of what is being proposed. Daveh and the amalgamation of services and procurement, this will clearly save money and in my experience of public sector has probably already been looked at. The savings are usually not as large as anticipated, but should not be ignored. Inefficiency and a lack of vision is usually the reason why such proposals are not pursued.

However, Hairyian's statement of staff cuts is where the big money is. It is unfortunate, particularly if you're one of those cut, but inevitable during these difficult times. Without such drastic measures the Councils reserves will be used and when the freeze on Council tax ends there will be very large percentage increases.

 

I have huge sympathy for those families living in small communities as they will not be able to revive them once the drive to save money ends. For those individual families there is the danger of significant financial losses as the values of their properties fall. Spinner72 hit the nail on the head when stating it is the timescales that are likely to cause the greatest upheaval. A longer term plan should have been put in place many years ago, this financial crises has been around for over 4 years now.

 

It's all very sad, but all very inevitable

[daveh]

I have already suggested, on the SIC cost-cutting thread, that there would be some really big savings to be made if SIC and Orkney councils combined

 

Yes, and you were largely ignored there as well.

 

There appears to be little or no support (at this time) for this particular idea.

 

Want to know why?

 

Just go and compare the amounts of money spent in different areas by both councils then, when you have done that, try and decide just where any amalgamation could take place and just who would have to go in order to make your plan work.

 

You are living in the past and have adopted the "sacred cow" approach. Until I retired, several years back, I worked in a variety of industries and also in the public sector. In virtually all of the jobs I was involved in, there were almalgamations and centralisation of functions in order to produce savings as well as become more efficient.

If there are savings to be made, they have to be achieved somewhere but nobody would choose to make them if they were personally affected. However, to ignore such potential administrative savings will lead the council towards making particularly unpopular decisions such as school closures and ferry cuts. If you stand up to criticise them then where do you think the savings can be achieved instead?

[hairyian]

 

The savings made would easily dwarf any potential savings in the education budget by closing some of the smaller schools and thus potentially decimating communities.

 

 

If it was that 'easily' why has it not been done?

Sadly it is NOT.

Total inefficiency, that is why.

Outside in the real world, centralisation is common place in aministrative functions is very commonplace. SIC and Orkney councils are perfectly placed to go down that route if they had some common sense.

 

I am not saying there is nothing to be saved. But I doubt it will 3 Million - every year ?

 

A long time ago there was a TV program featuring John Harvey-Jones. He would go into struggling / near bankrupt businesses and offer advice in how to turn the business round. I recall him saying something like ' when you find the management are counting the pens and pencils you know there is real trouble, because they are not concentrating on the root cause of their finacial problems'.

[Shoogler]

I have some sympathy with the suggestion daveh is making as it is inevitable that administrative overhead will need to be chopped if frontline service is not decimated.

The trouble i have is i would think Orkney are already leaner in all areas than Shetland so what's in it for them? Any deal would probably need to be on a 3 or 4 to 1 basis to be of interest to our neighbours

 

I also think it may be a fallacy that central or bulk purchasing will improve things. I have been told that the SIC is already part of a wider local authority purchasing initiative that is pretty good value

[daveh]

I recall him saying something like ' when you find the management are counting the pens and pencils you know there is real trouble, because they are not concentrating on the root cause of their finacial problems'.

 

That is symptomatic of the problem created generally in the UK where the Labour government, over a 13 years period, created 100s of thousands of non-jobs in order to keep the unions sweet and reduce unemployment figures. The coalition is trying to clear up the mess but the SIC haven't really come to grips with it up here and are clutching at all sorts of straws right now.

[Guest CyprusPluto]

. I have been told that the SIC is already part of a wider local authority purchasing initiative that is pretty good value

 

I would hope so. They do have purchasing links with the Health Board, who do engage in national procurement.

In fact, you may all be pleased to know that NHS Shetland buys a greater percentage of its products from national contracts than any other Health Board in Scotland

[Kavi Ugl]

I heard Public Platform on Radio Shetland tonight and it was pitiful.

 

Both councillors fudged the issue and wouldn't even give a straight answer with one waffling on about more consultation with the communities and parents at which point the presenter reacted with a frustration that basically spoke for the entire population and asked just how much more consultation do they need.

 

Amalgamating services with Orkney is the worst idea I have heard. This would be a gift to the Stalinist centralising SNP where Shetland is rapidly being subsumed into the Highlands and Islands. Try asking the UHI to stop putting Gaelic wording on their Shetland literature and see what responce you get - I did and it was frightening.

 

Returning to the schools I feel that the primary bairns, especially the peerie ones, must be protected in relation to travelling. I know someone who has a bairn in P1 in a rural school and although I can't remember the exact timings she recently told me their bairn has to meet the bus at something like 8.20am and then she only gets home about 4pm. I personally feel this is terrible for a peerie 5 year old bairn.

 

when you find the management are counting the pens and pencils you know there is real trouble, because they are not concentrating on the root cause of their finacial problems'

 

Unfortunately, this is exactly what's happening and the officers are simply not grasping the reality of what they're facing.

[daveh]

 

Amalgamating services with Orkney is the worst idea I have heard.

Well, you must have heard some totally unbelievable comments to say that. What were the best ideas that you have heard. I am sure that I could similarly criticise them.

So, where do you suggest the savings should come? Seemingly you also have the "sacred cow" approach to this matter.

 

Have you worked in the commercial sector? Centralisation of back office functions is very common there.

[Guest CyprusPluto]

Kavi Ugl. What is the reality of what they're facing?

 

There seems to be criticism of them when they want to involve the community in the decision and then there is criticism of them and the community is up in arms, when they don't and say this is going to happen.

 

I can understand and would agree with your scenario of the 5 year olds school day being too long, but then there is an obvious reality of Shetland not having enough money.

 

I would also agree that a reality of the public sector in Shetland being overly beaurocratic and top heavy. That is fine if they contribute a greater financial value than they cost, but do all of them. I wonder if Cost:Benefit analysis of the management reshuffle ever proved this.

[Kavi Ugl]

Apologies daveh if I came across a little strong there - I truly didn't mean to.

 

CyprusPluto, the reality of what they're facing is that the unrestrained golden days are over and their empires will have to be slashed.

 

Personally I suggest the savings should come from the big spenders like social work, and yes there is scope for school closures but it should start, as I believe this latest proposal does, with the Junior Highs.

 

I think most ordinary folk know that the SIC has a very bloated office side of things with many doing pretty unnecessary stuff in the grand scheme of things.

 

Unfortunately, the SIC is a prime example of Socialism which believes in Big Government and a bloated public sector. The truth is, it's unsustainable and doesn't work.

[Guest CyprusPluto]

CyprusPluto, the reality of what they're facing is that the unrestrained golden days are over and their empires will have to be slashed.

 

Totally agree. I have first hand experience of trying to encourage this sort of thinking and believe me it just doesn't happen. The Empire Strikes Back!

[hairyian]

I heard Public Platform on Radio Shetland tonight and it was pitiful.

 

Both councillors fudged the issue and wouldn't even give a straight answer with one waffling on about more consultation with the communities and parents at which point the presenter reacted with a frustration that basically spoke for the entire population and asked just how much more consultation do they need.

 

 

Spot on. Pretending that these proposals had sort have come out of the blue while on holiday, so needed to find out a bit more ... dodging the questions...

 

BBC should give much more air time to 'public platform'

 

Consultation? Pretty much no-one wants their school closed unless there is some juicy carrot. Consultation is helpful when there are options and choices to be made. Right now it is a case of we have no money to keep your school open ... pretty much end of story?

 

However earlier in the thread there is a suggestion that schools could opt out of the SIC education plan. Something that communities should seriously look at. Maybe there is a middle position whereby communities could make up the shortfall if they want their local school kept open ?

[Staney Dale]

If councillors had taken better decisions the last several times, the schools estate and the reserves would both be in much better condition. I think it was Gussie Angus who pointed out that schools is the one thing you can cut and actually improve services. Children stuck with the same twartree companions and one or two teachers through their whole childhood are socially and educationally deprived.

[Spinner72]

Unfortunately, this is exactly what's happening and the officers are simply not grasping the reality of what they're facing.

 

From what we have seen so far this is far from the case. The officers, those with extensive experience and relative qualifications and who understand what their departments do, are presenting options which DO meet the targets set by the councillors.

 

The problem is the councilors, who may have no experience whatsoever in some areas, are the ones who then take over and that is where the exercise falls down. (or, more accurately, has done until now, we have yet to see what this council does)

 

Things become political, logic goes out the window, and the dreaded saying "we can find £X from somewhere else" starts to creep in, people start to effectively micro-manage things by protecting certain areas etc despite knowing the money still has to come from somewhere. (this is what I meant regarding care cuts Shoogler - of course the decisions haven't been taken yet but the debates of how to avoid things like closing Freefield etc are already well underway).