Climate Change & Global Warming

[ArabiaTerra]

Now now! Cool dee jets - your ire may be contributing to GW.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1110_051110_warming.html

 

Look it's on wikipedia too, so it must be true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions#Role_of_water_vapor

Yeah, sorry about that. I just get really annoyed by people constantly trotting out the rubbish that water vapour is a bigger greenhouse gas than CO2 and therefore the alarm about rising CO2 levels is irrelevant, which I now realise Max didn't actually say.

 

The point is that water vapour has always been there, it's part of the natural greenhouse effect that keeps this planet habitable, so is CO2. The problem is the extra CO2 which humans have injected into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels.

 

So, apologies if I offended.

[MaxFusion]

what about all the extra H2O vapour we put up there too AT?

think, all them cooling towers at power stations..it's not smoke it's steam.

and that's just one supply....think of all the other industry out there stuffing more of it into the skies!

I'm not actually disagreeing with what anyone said, just trying to show some of the other factors which affect our climate. I don't think it's just a clean cut as we're lead to believe, and personally I don't think there's much we can do to stop what's comming either. However that doesn't mean I think we should stop trying to lessen polution on any level.

 

my 2p

[Njugle]

They reflect heat once there, but they also cannot but function as a man made heat energy transfer medium to the atmosphere. Air is an insulator - you heat some water and let it go it will take that heat energy with it in a much more efficient manner than dry air would.

[MaxFusion]

and then you've got the magnifying effect of the water particles in the air too...

think sunburn in a foggy day

[ArabiaTerra]

Hang on, wasn't the whole Global Dimming effect discovered because temperatures rose by a degree over the USA in a matter of days when all aviation was stopped due to 9/11?

 

It's ages since I saw the program about this, but it suggested the jet trails were protecting us from AGW. The problem is that water vapour only stays in the atmosphere for a short time before raining out whereas CO2 hangs around in the atmosphere for a century or more.

 

Hmmm, I'll have to see if I can dig up some more info on this (but I can't be arsed right now), I'll get back to you.

 

Oh yeah, and I'm sure I read somewhere recently that the amount of waste heat released from industry and transport etc was insignificant compared to the heat from the sun trapped by CO2 (several orders of magnitude smaller) but I'll have to try and find a reference for that too.

[ArabiaTerra]

(Adopt fake highland accent)

 

"We're doooomed, doooomed I tel' ya!"

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/17/monbiot-copenhagen-emission-cuts

[PJ of Hildisvik]

This has to be one for "The Ministry of the Bleedin Obvious",

 

"Countries talking about reducing independance on oil could impact our economy"

 

Mohammad al-Sabban of the Saudi ministry of petroleum told an OPEC energy conference.

 

Oh dear how sad, never mind.

No doubt they will plaster the Deserts with Solar Panels now the Oil monies are running out.

Perhaps a joint venture with SIC and SCT will be in the "Pipeline"

[mogling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYg7YE7NNvs&feature=channel_page

 

a wee short 10 min film, quite interesting?

 

 

Oh- does anyone mind that nice man David Bellamy? Not seen him on TV for long... wonder why?

His programmes were very interesting, he had a lot to say

[Malachy]

Oh- does anyone mind that nice man David Bellamy? Not seen him on TV for long... wonder why?

His programmes were very interesting, he had a lot to say

I remember him. He retired in 1992. Then, ten years later, he got bored of retirement and started to make bizarre claims about climate science from conspiracy sites he'd found on the internet. Then he decided that the reason he wasn't on TV any more was because of these bizarre claims, rather than the fact he retired and was old. A sad tale indeed.

[ArabiaTerra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYg7YE7NNvs&feature=channel_page

 

a wee short 10 min film, quite interesting?

The thing about that film....

 

Hang on, are you seriously telling me that you buy that garbage?

 

There is a natural greenhouse effect. It keeps the planet habitable. Without it this planet would be a ball of ice. The reason for this natural effect is because there is life on this planet. Volcanoes produce CO2. Life absorbs this CO2 and some of this absorbed CO2 is buried when the life that absorbed it dies and ends up somewhere (Peat bogs, lake bottoms, tundra, etc) where it doesn't rot and immediately release the CO2 back into the atmosphere. This CO2 ends up, over millions of years, being buried and turning into coal, oil and gas. This is called the Gaia effect, and it's what stops the CO2 growing to dangerous levels and causing the temperature to rise and make the planet uninhabitable.

 

Venus has no life and therefore no gaia effect and it's atmosphere is approximately 90% CO2. The surface temperature is hot enough to melt lead. This is way above the temperature you would expect simply because Venus is closer to the sun. It's what the Earth would be like without life.

 

You with me so far?

 

The reason that the CO2 level rise follows the temperature rise when the Earth is going between an ice age and an inter-glacial is because the rising temperature changes the climate and places where dead vegetation was frozen (like the tundra) melt and the vegetation rots and adds more CO2 to the atmosphere. This in turn makes the temperature increase which melts more ice which releases more CO2. It's a feedback loop. It continues until the atmosphere reaches equilibrium again and you're no longer in an ice age, but in an inter-glacial instead. This is the point we're in at the moment.

 

The trigger for this is changes in the Earth's orbit known as the Milankovitch cycle.

 

So, what has this got to do with Global Warming?

 

Remember the Gaia effect, locking away the excess CO2 from volcanoes as oil, coal and gas? We are now digging up that excess CO2, burning it, and chucking it back into the atmosphere. Over the last 250 years we have dug up 50% of that locked carbon and burned it which has changed the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by more than 100ppm. That is more than the natural variation between an ice age and an inter-glacial. This extra CO2 is what is causing Anthropogenic (man made) Global Warming (AGW).

 

It is true that there is a natural greenhouse effect. It is true that water vapour is a bigger greenhouse gas than CO2. But these factors are part of the natural background greenhouse effect which makes life possible. AGW, on the other hand, is not part of the natural cycle. It is man made and this is what is causing the problem. Nature has spent the last several hundred million years locking this excess CO2 away in the ground. We have put 50% of it back into the biosphere in 250 years. Back into play, so to speak.

 

This extra CO2 is causing extra warming on top of the natural effect, which in turn, is changing the climate in ways which would never have happened had man not been around. This extra warming is melting the Arctic ice (which reflects 90% of the suns energy back into space) leading to open water in the Arctic (which absorbs 90% of the suns energy) which leads to further warming (a feedback loop). This extra Arctic warming is melting the Siberian and Canadian tundra, which is then rotting and releasing more CO2 which, in turn leads to further warming (another feedback loop).

 

If we don't stop burning fossil fuels this will continue. It is already melting the Greenland ice sheet, and there are disturbing reports coming from scientists that it is beginning to affect the Antarctic ice sheet as well. AGW is beginning to cause runaway global warming which will lead to a very different world to that which we see today. It won't be a world which can support 7 billion people like we have at the moment, let alone the forecast 9 billion we will have by 2050.

 

So there you have it. Global Warming 101.

 

I hope this has enlightened you.

 

Oh, and by the way, all that stuff in the film about other planets warming and about oceans on the moons of Jupiter? Lies, pure and simple. The only open water in the Solar System is on Earth. In fact the entire film is a pack of lies, distortions and conspiracy theories. There was not a single unbiased piece of truth in the whole film. If you were to assume that the opposite of what was said in the film was the truth, then you would be much closer to reality than the film itself. Unfortunately there are people in the world who watch such things and don't question them. These people are fools.

[Para Handy]

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1913/3942548830a4754187539l.jpg

 

 

That sums it up in a nut shell

[Skunnered]

^^(No, no - the one immediately above that one!)Thanks, AT. That is the most clear, concise and simple explantation of GW I have come across. Mind you, I haven't delved into scientific papers or anything like that, but I have read a few articles that mostly left me more confused than before I started. In my view we need more of this sort of straight-forward and easy-to-understand explanations so that normal people (like me!!) can get a better understanding of the issues.

[Skunnered]

Nice one Para. I am SO looking forward to 2010!

[ArabiaTerra]

^^(No, no - the one immediately above that one!)Thanks, AT. That is the most clear, concise and simple explantation of GW I have come across....

Not at all, you're very welcome.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

I simply don't have time or the hard drive space in my head to digest another politico-industrio-govern-mental 'religion'/"belief" system.

 

Oh, and by the way, all that stuff in the film about other planets warming, Lies, pure and simple.

 

“I think it is an intriguing coincidence that warming trends have been observed on a number of very diverse planetary bodies in our solar system,†Peiser said in an email interview. “Perhaps this is just a fluke.â€

 

In fact, scientists have alternative explanations for the anomalous warming on each of these other planetary bodies.

 

http://www.livescience.com/environment/070312_solarsys_warming.html

 

I wouldn't bother with their explanation for it though, as they still have problems understanding the electric solar model and have to come up with endless ad hoc, mumbo jumbo, the same as they are doing with their grand scam, man made whatever.

 

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.†- Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

 

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.†- Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.â€

 

"Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.†- UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

 

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,†- Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

 

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.†- Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

 

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.†- U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

 

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.†– . Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.

 

“After reading [uN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.†- Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

 

“For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" - Geologist Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.

 

“Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp…Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact.†- Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.

 

“Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined.†- Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.

 

“Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense…The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning.†- Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.

 

“CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another….Every scientist knows this, but it doesn’t pay to say so…Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver’s seat and developing nations walking barefoot.†- Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.

 

“The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds.†- Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata.

 

It will be the point which people later remember as the time when we came to realize that the story of the great Global Warming panic so far has belonged to the history of hysteria, not of climate. Whether this moment will be succeeded by the application of science to the issue, well, right now that hangs in the balance. We hope so. But we are not holding our breath.

 

http://www.oftwominds.com/journal/global-warming6-07.html