Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[PressedCurdsOfMilk]

I didn't hear the speakeasy with Allen Wishart, but if he did question the legitimacy of the first ST poll, then he was wrong to do so.

 

But he did and most assertively. Don't try and make excuses for him... he discredited the ST poll.. loudly and clearly in public and meant every word of it... as a VE representative. This is the VE position on the issue as that was the message he clearly gave.

I believe you. I am not making excuses for anyone (as you can see by reading what I actually wrote and highlighted). And since you are so vociferous in defence of the first Shetland Times poll, I assume you agree with the methodology used to conduct that poll.

 

And if you believe in the methodology used to conduct the first poll, you implicitly agree with the methodology used to conduct the second poll, which was exactly the same.

The point I am making is that "sustainable" Shetland didn't question the legitimacy of the first poll when it was in their favour, but then immediately cried foul when the second poll came out showing the majority supported the windfarm, and that "sustainable" Shetlands support had collapsed.

 

Are you now willing to call out Billy Fox, Kevin Learmouth and Allen Fraser for questioning this poll? And if not, then why not?

 

I don't speak for Sustainable Shetland, I might share many of their view, but speak for myself, alias: Ched. If you want those answers perhaps you need to contact the individuals you mention directly rather than speculate on or ask me to speculate on the meaning of their comments. I am not in possession of all the facts.

Fair enough, I accept that. But are you willing to speak for yourself (alias: Ched) and admit that the most recent ST poll represents the most up to date indication we have of the opinion of Shetlanders in general, not just those who could be arsed to write in to the planning authorities?

 

After all, you've already pointed out that criticism of the first poll was misplaced and I agree with you.

 

Quite the contrary AT, it was Viking Energy who were vociferous in the condemnation of the first ST poll. The ST Polls seems to have been widely criticised if not completely rejected, particularly by VE in the speakeasy.

 

The most relevant indication of public opinion therefore can be seen in the number of letters sent to the energy consent unit, 2,736 letters of objection, 1,114 letters of support which shows that the majority of people oppose the windfarm proposal. A significant number of objectors, not just "those who could be arsed". 71% being letters of objection. These are significant numbers... certainly the biggest sample of the population to 'stand up and be counted' so the nearest thing we'll get to an actual referendum. 71% opposition concurs with the general opinion I have encountered presently and over the past 4 years. Allan Wishart said, if I remember his comments correctly, that we don't need a referendum, letters the the ECU is effectively the referendum (I'll apologise and retract this sentence if I'm proven wrong, it was another speakeasy comment).

 

If you are concerned about the validity and ST Poll and consistency of its methodology, then I can't answer those questions. VE have certainly made their opinions known.

 

bobdahog raises an interesting question above... I don't have all the fact, do you?

[paulb]

maybe a good indication that the papers poles were fair is that both sides don't like the results. lets just assume that the second pole was right would that change your view if the majority were either in favour on not bothered.

[ArabiaTerra]

See for yourself, I've highlighted the relevant bit and bobdahog is wrong again, as usual.

 

Our telephone poll of 1,050 people was carried out by staff mem­ber Michelle Robertson. Last year’s poll asked four supplementary ques­tions, but this time we decided to con­centrate on opinion on the prin­ciple of the windfarm.

 

The question – “Are you in favour of or against the proposed Viking Energy windfarm?†– was exactly the same as that asked last year. The question and methodology were designed in accordance with tech­niques used by professional pollsters and approved by BBC opinion polling expert and Strathclyde University professor John Curtice.

 

The random sample was weighted for age, sex and population distribu­tion to give as accurate as possible an indication of the balance of opin­ion.

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2010/12/10/more-people-now-in-favour-of-windfarm-than-against-it-according-to-latest-poll

 

My point is, Ched, you are criticising VE and Allen Wishart for questioning the validity of the ST poll. I agree with this criticism.

 

What I can't understand is your refusal to criticise "sustainable" Shetland for doing exactly the same thing.

 

Surely, if one side deserves criticism over this issue, then both sides deserve criticism.

 

And by engaging in this criticism, you implicitly agree with the legitimacy of the ST polls as a measure of the opinion of the people of Shetland. The number of objection or support letters received by the planning authority is not a reflection of the opinion of Shetland as a whole. It is a self selected sample of those who felt strongly enough to comment, nothing more and nothing less.

 

So, once more, do you agree that "sustainable" Shetland are wrong to criticise the legitimacy of the poll carried out by The Shetland Times?

 

Oh, and this bit:

The random sample was weighted for age, sex and population distribu­tion to give as accurate as possible an indication of the balance of opin­ion.

... is the bit which makes the Times poll an accurate assessment of public opinion in Shetland.

[PressedCurdsOfMilk]

It is quite clear to me that significantly more people, 71% in terms of letters to the ECU oppose the windfarm. This is highly significant and is the most relevant poll.

 

[edit] Don't imply anything AT [/edit], what I know to be correct is that there is and always has been a majority opposition to this windfarm, demonstrated consistently over 4 years. There has been no demonstration of majority support to the windfarm now or at any time over the past 4 year.

[shetlandpeat]

I wonder what happens if they all pull out.

It is quite a sum of money to be spent, Shetland folk used to be canny and grab opportunities. It is plain to see that the Isles will not get all the sum talked about, but there are jobs and an island income to think about.

How far behind is wave power, is it as advanced and as cheap to install, or more expensive.

The Charitable Trust seems to have limited funds, would this injection benefit the whole. I dont like injections, but they sometimes have to be given for the whole body to survive.

There is no talk of a similar capacity tide/wave plan.

Could you be in fear of pricing yourselves out of the equation?

Especially as the rest of Europe are getting connected.

[ArabiaTerra]

It is quite clear to me that significantly more people, 71% in terms of letters to the ECU oppose the windfarm. This is highly significant and is the most relevant poll.

 

[edit] Don't imply anything AT [/edit], what I know to be correct is that there is and always has been a majority opposition to this windfarm, demonstrated consistently over 4 years. There has been no demonstration of majority support to the windfarm now or at any time over the past 4 year.

Ah, there's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

The ST poll indicates there is a majority in favour of the windfarm. That directly contradicts what you've just said.

 

The ECU letters are not a poll. It's that simple.

[JAStewart]

Squeaky bum time for Viking Energy? (not my pic)

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/181695_10150396042690085_827950084_17739187_5309921_n.jpg

 

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/182836_10150396045405085_827950084_17739239_5494490_n.jpg

 

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/180689_10150396046480085_827950084_17739277_461334_n.jpg

[unlinkedstudent]

The ST poll indicates there is a majority in favour of the windfarm. That directly contradicts what you've just said.

 

The ECU letters are not a poll. It's that simple.

 

CSE Maths is simple but there was not, as has been pointed out previously to you AT, a majority in favour in the ST poll. What percentage of the population was asked?

 

I had intended to be on today's march but I've been up half the night ill means that I'm not.

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^^ Define majority, unlinked.

[JAStewart]

AT, a majority can mean 51% against 49% or 99% against 1%.

 

We're never going to get everyone in Shetland to turn out to vote against or for Viking Energy, but you, nor can anyone, say that any poll currently represents the views of Shetlanders.

 

36% support it according to the Shetland Times, 33% against, 31% unsure. I am not comfortable with 36% of people deciding on something as major as this. VE need to do more to convince people that the project is worthwhile if they want to get more support, simple as that.

 

All that the Times poll shows is that there has been a change since last year.

[unlinkedstudent]

^^^^ Define majority, unlinked.

 

AT, I'm ill. Having spent half the night in the bathroom ... if I say any more as to what I think of you asking me to define majority ... well ... you KNOW what majority is.

 

For once, AT, why don't you simply admit that THOSE who participated in the ST Poll, did NOT indicate they were in favour of the windfarm. Some folk were undecided.

 

One respectfully suggests you go and buy a dictionary and a calculator.

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^ The thing is, we had this argument back when the first ST poll came out. I took issue with the fact that "sustainable" Shetland were claiming a majority against when they had less than 50%. I thought at the time that you needed 50%+ before you could claim a majority.

 

A number of posters, including Malachy, a professional wordsmith, informed me that this was not the case. They said that the majority was merely the largest share.

 

I accepted this correction, and that is how I have used the word majority since, and how I am using it now.

 

I hope that clears things up.

[JustMe]

Majority?. Minority?. Somewhere in the middle?. What does it matter?. Surely the decision to go ahead will be made by the people putting up the money who will go ahead if they believe the scheme is going to be profitable unless the Scottish Government says no. The fact that only 36% of the Shetland public who responded to a newspaper poll are in favour of the plans is not going to influence any of the decision makers.

 

However I have made up my own mind and I am against the scheme going ahead unless consideration is given to those conical shaped wind turbines as an alternative to the conventional ones and the possibility of efficient tidal power generation being possible by the time the current scheme is built. I would also like to have a clearer explanation of the damage the proposals will or will not do to the environment.

[unlinkedstudent]

noun (plural majorities)

 

* 1 the greater number:in the majority of cases all will go smoothly[as modifier] :it was a majority decision

 

* British the number by which the votes cast for one party or candidate exceed those for the next:Labour retained the seat with a majority of 9,830

 

* a party or group receiving the greater number of votes.

 

* US the number by which votes for one candidate are more than those for all other candidates together.

 

* 2 [mass noun] the age at which a person is legally a full adult, usually either 18 or 21.

 

* 3 the rank or office of a major.

 

Phrases

 

be in the majority

belong to or constitute the larger group or number.

 

Origin:

 

mid 16th century (denoting superiority): from French majorité, from medieval Latin majoritas, from Latin major (see major)

 

Usage

 

Strictly speaking, majority should be used with countable nouns to mean ‘the greater number’, as in the majority of cases. Use with uncountable nouns to mean ‘the greatest part’, as in I spent the majority of the day reading, is not considered good standard English, although it is common in informal contexts"

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0493560#m_en_gb0493560

 

Some would say that Thatcher won and had a "majority" yet others will state she did not as more people voted against her.

 

Those voting in favour of the project in the ST poll were not "the greatest number" - Those undecided and against were greater in number combined than those in favour.

 

Unless you asked every single council tax payer/person old enough to vote/living here a simple yes/no, then the poll is flawed. You may choose to put forward the argument that a "don't know" should be given. The poll results were a representation of those asked. What percentage of the Shetland public was asked?

 

Ah, the joys of proportional representation - many countries now recognise that people want to abstain from voting in elections and have the right to indicate so, it being illegal not to vote. However, whilst the wind farm project is a political issue, it is not a political election per se.

 

Did every person in a household telephoned get the chance to answer? What if ST telephoned and the man was for and the wife against? Were both views taken? What if their offspring, say over 18, were out? Did their views count?

 

The results of the poll showed, IMHO, that those people asked were split and therefore no majority. Without a proper referendum, who knows? We can only go by what we discuss with each other.

[paulb]

the march pics show at most a hundred or so people. if the anti windfarm movement was burning in the heart of the shetland population on mass you would expect 1000+.

 

you can't define letters to a body as a poll because only those with a motive will write in. even if 99.99% had been in favour or against it would not make it a valid poll. a 5% sample of the population is pretty large compared to that of the opionion polls on who we will vote for.

 

what we really have is a third in favour a third against and the other third not caring or not bothered. this really indicates nothing it really only shows that both polls are roughly saying the same thing. that shetland needs to make its mind up about it future. we need some sound clear and logical leadership over our future.

 

it worries me that we just seem to drift there is no real planning. look at the school joke they just drift. if things were planned carefully we would have had a new school and even tunnels if they had thought it through.

 

if our leaders can't sort themselves out and plan for our future then they need to step down and give someone else a try.