Helicopter Ditches in North Sea

[paulb]

Well said Pooks. The only important point at the moment is that 16 people have died. Whether training to help the pilot ditch/land would have helped will only come to light when its found and raised.

[Whitaker]

Like everyone else my thoughts go to family & friends of crew lost & crew themselves.

 

I was quite shocked to learn about the 45 crew that died of Sumburgh back in 1986. I was 6 at the time and I can't recall ever hearing the subject mentioned by parents of even at school.

[MuckleJoannie]

I was quite shocked to learn about the 45 crew that died of Sumburgh back in 1986. I was 6 at the time and I can't recall ever hearing the subject mentioned by parents of even at school.

 

It's one of those events that I can remember exactly where I was when I heard the news - sitting in my girlfriend's car outside her flat in Edinburgh. Incidentally the I think some BBC reports were wrong as they stated that all on board died. In fact 2 survived thanks to a Coastguard helicopter excerising in the area. You can read about it here

[phil]

OK. I've read enough of this uninformed crap posted by MaxFusion that purports to be the "truth", so I'll respond. I am an EASA and FAA certificated Licenced Aircraft Engineer, licenced on a multitude of helicopter and fixed wing types including the Super Puma. I started with Bristow at Sumburgh in 1976, sweeping the hangar floor and just kept going from there. Many of these points have been challenged by other posters - so I may be just reiterating what has already been argued in some cases.

 

There is no easy way to diffuse the utter nonsense you are writing and quoting in here, so I'll be dispense with the niceties and be blunt. If you want to portray yourself as informed and knowledgeable about helicopters, I'll challenge anything and everything you say.

 

I know a few helicopter techs and none of them would fly in one...doesn't that say something?

Complete and utter stoness. Part of the job is that if you fix it you fly with it. Some of the jobs require more flying than others, all require some flying.

 

yeah, they're so safe that all the new helicopters including the search and rescue pair were grounded for almost a week while they had their gearboxes changed...and that's just a main fault that we were to hear about.

These helicopters were on the ground over the weekend, whilst titanium studs that secure the Main Gearbox filter housing were replaced. This was a result of another tragic accident, and an immediate resolution to eliminate the possibility of a recurrence. I used to work for VIH/Cougar, so that accident really hit home.

 

yep, all true but the fact is if that big fan on top of them stops turning for whatever reason they'll drop like a stone. No gliding in....just splat!

This is an accurate assessment. It is also a scenario that does not rank amongst the highest reasons for helicopter accidents, nor despite two recent tragic accidents involving this, very likely to occur. However, that being said, there are accidents that have been survived when exactly that has occurred - one of them happened to a good friend of mine!

 

Yes I've heard of auto-rotation, practiced by the military but relatively recent as far as civilian pilots are concerned. Fine as long as the gearbox hasn't been damaged. Don't be fooled into thinking it's a simple procedure to carry out.

More complete and utter crap. Auto-rotations are an integral part of helicopter operation, certification and training. Autorotation was understood and harnessed before powered helicopter flight, with the use of Autogyros. A major part of basic helicopter flight training is focussed on autorotations, and in the course of obtaining a licence, you will have done hundreds of succesful autorotations. Autorotations have been part of military and commercial flight training and licensing since the inception of flight training and helicopter operation. I think I maybe forgot to mention I am also a licensed Helicopter Pilot.

 

The main problem with fixed wing aircraft these days is that if the powerplants stop working the hydraulics do also so there's little/no control.

 

More complete crap. Certification of any aircraft requires that any number of safety systems are integrated into the basic design of an aircraft undergoing certification. Many of them relate to flight controls and powered flight controls. As there is no manual reversion on many of these systems in large aircraft, there is obviously the neccessity to design and incorporate systems to provide safe control of the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Modern flight control systems may include many different designs including fly by wire, and electrical back up systems. RAT's and APU's offer a range of standby power and means of powering these systems. Could a complete failure occur? Of course, anything is possible, but to make the claim that if the powerplants fail there is little or no control is uninformed and ridiculous.

 

 

 

In most autorotation training, pilots receive in-flight instruction on autorotation technique using initial conditions that are well outside of the hover-velocity (H-V) restriction curve of the helicopter flown--and the engine remains powered. Additionally, the entry conditions (altitude, relative wind direction, and especially airspeed) are usually consistent from one practice autorotation to another (within model and instructor). Autorotation training in a simulator is an infrequent event for most pilots, and even the best simulators poorly reproduce the cues required during an actual autorotation. The primary utility of simulators as an autorotation training aid, therefore, is to develop a proficient instrument scan procedure. The likelihood of a successful autorotation performed under actual instrument conditions, however, is extremely remote. Clearly rotary pilots have few resources to help them train toward and maintain autorotation proficiency, so that the autorotation is usually regarded as a `take what comes and pray` maneuver.

 

Most training is accomplished outside the H-V curve for the basic reasons of survivability in the ensuing landing. This entire quote comes from a patent application that is selling a concept (maybe a very good one?). There are various ways of mitigating the exposure to the parts of the curve where a succesful auto can be accomplished on either take-off or landing, utilizing CAT A performance and procedures. The author may believe that an auto is a "take what comes and pray" occurence, but very few flight crew would.

 

And to put anyone elses mind at rest you can confirm here that there have only been 8 fatal accidents involving helicopters in the uk since 1976 (actually all since 1998) out of 16 incidents (again all since 1998)

 

Utilizing the National Transportation Safety Board data base to analyse UK helicopter accidents is extremely misleading and inaccurate. It is designed as a reporting system to define probable cause primarliy for accidents to aircraft in the United States. You might want to look at the AAIB site for a more accurate picture.

 

That was just one quote which summed up pretty well all the other postings I found for Autorotation, I found more stats which said there were as many aircraft lost training for autorotation technique as there were lost during actual incidents where pilots had to use autorotation techniques.

 

This comment may actually have some veracity to it, as it demonstrates how unlikely an occurence a live autorotation might be. Conversely, if you look at training helicopters that perform hundreds of thousands of auto's when training crews, it is probably a fairer assessment that far more crews are adequately trained and have the capability of completing an autorotation than the number of aircraft lost. Every year a number of helicopters will succesfully perform an emergency autorotation. Every year a number of helicopters will perform an autorotation that results in damage to the helicopter and/or injury or loss of life for the occupants. Much of the outcome of a succesful autorotative landing is determined by what your are landing on, or in. I would suggest that a far greater number of accidents occur outside the realm of autorotative recovery just through the realities of helicopter operation. Fixation on autorotation is an unrealistic method of analysing or preventing accidents. There are accidents involving every phase of flight or operation.

 

My condolences to all involved in this latest tragedy. Helicopters provide safe transportation every day, but accidents do occur and a huge amount of effort is put in by the industry, regualtors and operators to minimize them by understanding the causes, fixing problems and designing solutions in new generations of helicopters.

 

MF, don't take this a personal attack. I couldn't care about your opinions or positions, but when you start purporting this as fact and truth, I cannot sit here without responding. It is uninformed and inaccurate and should not be left unchallenged. Just for good measure, here is a video of an S-92 doing a full down auto, just for you!

 

 

[MaxFusion]

I would prefer Penfolds take as misinformed rather than uninformed Phil...there's so much crap out there it's hard for us laypersons to make much sense of all of it. And the thing is all I did was make a few quotes, those I could I linked to from the source, not once did I say "I know for a fact" you took it to be so.

 

Penfold was the first one to speak about Autorotations, and the way he wrote it made it sound like a simple procedure. I read about autorotations, and have done a lot more since this topic started.

When you read on some pages that as many aircraft have been lost during practice autorotations as have during actual emergencies requiring an autorotation it makes you think "heck this ain't no easy procedure"

Then through the deluge of crap you find a page for an "autorotation competition"....where pilots have to hit as close to a target using the autorotation technique! makes me think the earlier article mite be a bit out of date maybe...

 

This is an accurate assessment.

glad you said that, because it turns out that's kinda what happened to this last Puma isn't it?

 

and while we're at it

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1169367/Defect-detected-seven-days-fatal-North-Sea-helicopter-crash.html

what's all this about? I take it particles were found in the oil?

 

And after all your flaming not one of you managed to come up with the simple answer that everyone seems to miss out here. All you techies think it's you guys keeping those aircraft flying, and I dare say you're doing a fine job. But a mention for those pilots maybe? For those guys to keep flying in the face of problems shows just how professional they are.

[Pooks]

That would appear to be typical Daily Mail scaremongering.

 

The Puma in question had HUMS (Health and Usage Monitoring System) installed which monitors various parts of the aircraft for problems. It was this system that showed a particle and the recommendation was for a daily inspection of the epicyclic gearbox magnetic chip detector. The HUMS data was also analysed each time the helicopter returned to base for the next 25 hours. No further problems were noticed (the Daily Mail skipped over this bit).

 

The Daily Mail released that story two days after the AAIB released their initial report into the accident, which detailed all of this.

 

Since then the EASA has released an airworthiness directive detailing extra checks that must be undertaken with all AS332 and EC225's to ensure that this never happens again.

[MaxFusion]

That would appear to be typical Daily Mail scaremongering.

fair do's, with media coverage like this are we surprised there's misinformed people out there asking questions?

[Infiltrator]

and so it rises...if they're missing they're probably goners too...

goes with the job I guess. I know a few helicopter techs and none of them would fly in one...doesn't that say something?

 

Max, to return to your original post - I suggest you have a read at this (page 17 prob best for you)

 

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/368283-heli-ditch-north-sea-again-not-condolences-17.html

 

Seems a number of folks who post on there disagree with the sentiment of techs that you said you know.

[penfold]

Penfold was the first one to speak about Autorotations, and the way he wrote it made it sound like a simple procedure.

 

Correct I did, and if you look at the post I stated that in certain circumstances as at the time there was no indication as to what had happend to the aircraft and therefore thought it best not to indulge in the speculation that surrounds such sad events.

[sheepshagger]

Having spent 20 years working offshore and having flown in numerous types of helicopter, I personally do not like flying in the Pumas/tigers, in the UK sector they have more seats fitted than in any other part of the world making an uncomfortable journey even more so. In the event of a ditching lack of room to manouver also makes escape from an upturned chopper highly unlikely.

Give me a S61, S92, or even an S76 or bell bubbles anyday, better still have the UK government legislate instead of giving weak advise to the oil industry on matters of safety

[MaxFusion]

Seems a number of folks who post on there disagree with the sentiment of techs that you said you know.

 

a lot of people seemed to agree engineers don't airtest

Pilots do...not saying that's the case up here, but what was your point exactly?

[sheepshagger]

Of course engineers air test no point fixing something and not checking it out. Quite a few engineers I know consider airtests one of the perks of the job.

[Infiltrator]

Just strikes me as odd as all the one's I've met are very professional and take their job very seriously - I couldn't imagine any of them saying that they'd never choose to fly in a helicopter.

 

Maybe the heli techs that Max knows are the only ones who would choose not to fly in a helicopter?

[JohanofNess]

Just strikes me as odd as all the one's I've met are very professional and take their job very seriously - I couldn't imagine any of them saying that they'd never choose to fly in a helicopter.

 

Maybe the heli techs that Max knows are the only ones who would choose not to fly in a helicopter?

 

It's not a matter of never flying in a helicopter they have to fly it's part of their job, sure there might be the odd occasion when it's not essential so they don't go up but at some point the engineer has to fly as part of testing.

 

MF who seemed to agree engineers didn't have to fly?.

[Mattie]

Max Fusions Quotes......

Give the guy a break!!! He was only trying his best. By putting his views forward!!

no matter what you put on this site- you can be assured that the majority won't agree with you!!!