Independence for Shetland!

[Trønder]

Orkney and Shetland never belonged to Denmark we had a Danish king and even this is up for debate. We were part of the Norwegian realm and Norway came under the yolk Of Denmark.

That is correct. The same person, Kristian/Christian I, was both the king of Denmark and the king of Norway, and Orkney and Shetland were Norwegian possessions.

 

Therefore, Norway was a part of the Danish Kingdom at the time. And so, at the time of the betrothal Norway and Shetland were managed/governed/owned by Denmark. Shetland was not independent.

I'm afraid that is not correct. Norway and Denmark were separate kingdoms, with separate councils of the realm, and separate coronations, but with the same person as king. Shetland most certainly was not owned by Denmark.

 

It is also questionable whether Christian I acted as King of Denmark or as King of Norway. The tricky thing is that the contract itself was a typical "Danish document" (handled by Danish diplomats without information to the Norwegian parliament) but it has the phrase "pertaining to us and our predecessors, Kings of Norway" what was at some time interpreted as Christian I placing himself in the line of the Norwegian Kings ...

What makes you say that it is questionable? These were Norwegian possessions and Kristian I had been crowned the king of Norway in Trondheim on 2 August 1450. All sources I have seen say that he did this as the king of Norway, and, quite frankly, anything else would be a little absurd. Here is an example from the Danish State Archives:

 

"I 1589 blev der indgået en aftale om ægteskab mellem prinsesse Anna og kong James den Sjette af Skotland. Da Christian den Førstes datter Margrete i 1468 skulle giftes med hans tipoldefar James den Tredje, kunne den danske konge ikke udrede medgiften og pantsatte derfor - i sin egenskab af norsk konge - Orkneyøerne til den skotske konge med ret til at indløse dem senere."

 

http://www.sa.dk/sa/godehistorier/kaerlighed/anna.htm

 

I also can't find anything in the treaty itself that would give a different impression. With the exception of his full title at the beginning and the mention of the "kingdom of Denmark" as a geographical location it is "...our kingdom of Norway...", "...us and our heirs, kings of Norway...", "...our predecessors, the former kings of Norway...", "...we, Christian, king of Norway...", "...our realm of Norway...", "...us and our predecessors, kings of Norway..." and "...us, our heirs and successors, kings of Norway...".

 

Funny thing that I am in Norway just now and most if not all the folks I'm working with have a fondness for Shetland. They are very grateful for the Shetland bus and a hell of a lot of them have visited Shetland to find out more about the place. Some are as I write this making plans to come over next summer.

I agree with this. Many Norwegians know about our common history and feel a connection to the islands.

[Dagfinn]

Hence Loch a Vatster eydir contains a pre-norse structure fae Pictish, or a post norse Scots structure derived fae Gaelic. ...

 

Forget of all the Loch-names on OS maps or so. They are all going back to Pont and his accounts or those of his 17th/18th century successors who had neither an idea of Gaelic nor of Scots. They just wrote down what they did understand and that ended up in so funny things as on the western coast of Scotland like "Loch Laxfirth" or "Loch Snizoort" for that what had been "Synforth" for centuries ...

That´s also what I´ve read about Shetland place names, the "Loch-names" were added only recently; Shetland lakes were named "vatn" as they were in Faroe, Iceland and Norway.

But I understand there are some other original Gaelic placenames in Shetland. Unfurtunately I don´t have Jakobsen´s dictionary, but I think he mentions som of them. In the Faroese language some Gaelic words and place names have survived until our time. One of them being the word "ærgi" or "argi" derived from Old Irish "áirge" meaning "a pasture in the outfield" or a "summer milking place". The Norwegian word for the same thing is "seter" or "sæter". http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/duil-belrai/lorg.php?facal=airge&tairg=Old-Irish+headword&seorsa=Gaidhlig

There is a suburb of Tórshavn called Argir, which used to be such a place, where Tórshavners kept their cattle in the summer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argir

 

Was N ireland under the same restrictions and not S Ireland?

Regarding the foot and mouth disease outbreak in Britain. I was in Dublin last month, where a lady told me, that Mr. Ian Paisley himself had phoned the Japanese prime minister and assured him, that Ulster was not in Britain, but in Ireland.

[sheepshagger]

and Mr Paisley would be correct Ulster is in Ireland, the island of Britain is the larger one to the east. Ulster is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Are you saying that Ulster did not suffer the same restrictions over foot and mouth that Shetland has to contend with.

[deardron]

Unfurtunately I don´t have Jakobsen´s dictionary, but I think he mentions som of them.

I think the dictionary is not very helpful in this case, first of all you should get Jakobsen's article about Shetland placenames, it is included into his "Greinir og ritgerðir" published in the Faroes.

 

BTW, nice explanation about Argir, I didn't kow about that

[Dagfinn]

Are you saying that Ulster did not suffer the same restrictions over foot and mouth that Shetland has to contend with.

To be frank, I actually don´t know. But it obviously sparkled som cooperation across the border. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0804/fmd.html

[sheepshagger]

the latest figures for Sullom Voe state that throughput will decrease over the next 5 years. this is not taking into consideration the new fields being developed to the west of Shetland. these fields are in our waters and the oil should come to Sullom. The fields in Faroe's waters will also come through Sullom.

this is blatant scare mongering on the part of the oil companies, Oh my god the oil is running out you have to lower your charges sic or it wont be viable for us to operate from here. just another round of sprootle.

As things stand at the moment the value of the oil going through Sullom is £16,687,910/day that works out at £6,091,087,436/year not a small amount by any standard and the price is only going to get higher.

Not all the oil and gas in our waters comes through Sullom so a couple of billion more can be added to these figures.

Stand up those folks that think we have had a good deal.

now lets use the £6billion pound mark as a very conservative estimate of throughput over the last 30 years, that's makes £180,000,000,000 of our money that has been divided up between the oil companies and the UK. and some folks reckon we couldn't survive without grants from the UK/Scots. We have hardly even received the crumbs of the crumbs from our own table at £80,000,000.

Lets try this bargaining strategy when next we sit down with the oil companies/UK government, pay what we ask or sausage of and take the oil ashore someplace else.

The chances that they will walk away from the oil that is left in the north sea is zero same goes for the oil out west. the cost of putting in place the infrastructure to take the oil ashore anywhere else would run to many hundreds of millions of pounds probably billions. so with a position like this we have the whip hand. A demand for a dollar a barrel 1% of its current value would be a cheaper option than pulling out of Sullom and the fact that prices are only going to rise it would be an progressively cheaper option for the companies and it would earn Shetland $347,381/day or £170,285/day which works out at £62,153,953/year a mere fraction of total but a hell of a lot more than we have received in the past.

I work in the industry and have seen the millions of pounds thrown at jobs with little expectation of a return on the investment but hey it's all written off against tax and it's only a drop in the ocean to them. so £62,000,000 would be no great loss to them either.

I doubt we have councilors with the necessary balls to carry this off looking at the way past agreements were negotiated the SIC negotiator was either a fool or taking backhanders (don't worry mods. as the negotiator is now dead libel/slander laws don't apply)

One other point is I would opt for a fee fixed to the £ as the US$ is only going to get weaker

[Trønder]

As the oil price increases and new technology is developed it will open for activity on wells that were considered too expensive and ones that were "empty" with old technology.

[Jordan]

I need to bow my metaphorical head and apologize to the forum for some of my posts concerning Norwegian statistics a few weeks ago. I've spent some time researching the comments on the replies against what I said, and I have discovered that I was mostly wrong.

 

So, sorry for writing rubbish folks and confusing things. My only excuse is my lame Uni. education and my own lack of critique on the claims made by my lecturers and fellow students.

 

Let the debate roll on...

[Guest Anonymous]

I Fully agree witht the idea of independance for our islands and it wtaters to the edge of the continental shelf and we should fight for this all the way , da rest of britass i can see going doon the tubes , its been on the slide for a long while now ...

But if we did get them to the bargaining table we would probably end up with a watered doww version of independance , but certainly some sort of autonomous status in line with other british linked island groups would have to be a great thing for our most important of industries , fishing , aquaculture , crofting and producing some of the finest mariners on the planet.

[penfold]

When independance does come and by the look of it it will, with the pro-unionist parties divied within themselves as to how to fight the SNP's campaign towards independance, and the growing opinion in England that they are unfairly subsiding Scotland and that we should be set free to go on our own.

 

It seems that there will be a lot of arguing over who gets what and what should go where, some are even advocating that Shetland should stay part of The United Kingdom, is this possible? What are legalities? will Bush and Blair invade wis to secure da oil and stop Mr Salmond fae making off the the revenue????!!!!!

 

Personally I think its highly likely that the Union is slowly dying a death, and it is best for us to start making plans as to how we will fit into the new state of Scotland, and from there seek to gain more autonomy.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/14/do1401.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

[penfold]

I was joking about the Bush/Brown invasion honest

[dB]

When independance does come and by the look of it it will, with the pro-unionist parties divied within themselves as to how to fight the SNP's campaign towards independance, and the growing opinion in England that they are unfairly subsiding Scotland and that we should be set free to go on our own.

 

It seems that there will be a lot of arguing over who gets what and what should go where, some are even advocating that Shetland should stay part of The United Kingdom, is this possible? What are legalities? will Bush and Blair invade wis to secure da oil and stop Mr Salmond fae making off the the revenue????!!!!!

 

Personally I think its highly likely that the Union is slowly dying a death, and it is best for us to start making plans as to how we will fit into the new state of Scotland, and from there seek to gain more autonomy.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/14/do1401.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

 

 

 

Coodna pittin it better meself.

 

Well said P.

[Guest Anonymous]

Having been a Mr Stuart Hill's seminar / meeting at the museam last night , I am now more of the opinion that the Shetland Islands should begin the fight to take full control of all our affairs .

He did an excellent job of explaining the history of ownership & enforcement of administration that has take place for our Islands Over the recent and slightlly more distant centuries , he said it was the first time he has made such a public talk and i congratulate him on his professional style with which he carried it out.

Perhaps Mr Hill you could take this show on the road to community coffee evenings & 8o'clock suppers around shetlands public halls etc.... , Orkney folk would also find this very interesting i would think.

The slight air of antagonism between the speaker Mr Hill and Various Members of the Shetland Museam & Archives staff was the only thing that seemed to sour the the evenings speech and debate.

I must say i find the work the Staff have done at the new museam truly excellent & very well put together.

But where they stood apart , well from where i stood was the interpretation of often the same documents.

I am certainly no expert on such matters , but Mr Hills conclusions won the day for me , it was sad to think that the staff of archives took offence at him arriving at different conclusions than themselves , regarding the context and ultimate meaning of said documents and that the word conspiracy was aired.

Well i feel pretty sure there is no active conspiracy going on , it just a very important matter which the dusts of time have settled over but we the people of Shetland could dust of and use to the enormous benefit of our future.

And i can assure you i am no xenophobe , if we were to gain control of our Islands from now it would be for everybody that is here now , and there is room for folk from all corners of this globe who i believe bring much needed skills and also cultural diversity which can enrich the lives off all concerned.

[Trønder]

Could you be specific, droilker? What did he review and what were the documents and conclusions?

[sheepshagger]

I was at his talk as well and was impressed with the way he presented the facts, the presentation lasted over an hour and the only objections from the floor came from members of the free Scotland party and members of the scottish socialist party, political axe to grind as both parties policies would go tits up without Shetlands oil.