Independence for Shetland!

[sheepshagger]

I'm got to the second paragraph o de post IH and all I can think is I owe nothing to a scoty UK king queen.

I am a Shetlander I am who I am I do not wear a kilt the bag pipes are a musical instrument played rather well by the egyptians I am Shetland I may not be your cup of tea, but I will stand up and be counted, the scoties and the guffies hold no fear for me I will put me head above the parepit and come on you thievin (** MOD EDIT **) prove me wrong.

I know that I come on here and put some very right wing veiws accross but that is just me carrying on the tradition of the man we some balls.

I grew up with my great grandfather my grandfather my father all telling me we were being screwed (I would use stronger laguage but I would be edited).

I am not someone sitting with f all I have made everything a man could hope to achieve, I have self respect an ability to look after me and mine. what I don't have is self determination I have a bunch of foriengers telling me what is right and wrong. and as far as I can see they have no bloody idea. I am a Shetlander, and as far as I can see the f in brits are lost in their own publicity. F them bunch of thieving wa"£$rs.

should probably put this in the pished thread but f it this is the only thing that is not family that I really give a (** MOD EDIT **) about

 

[mod]Please also give some consideration to our T&C's[/mod]

[roadslave]

Is it any real wonder, approx 450 years of Scottie Lairds continously constructively exiling or "causing to vanish" any and all "rebels", "dissenters" and "troublemakers", and keeping the rest on a short leash of fear and fantation has an evolutionary effect and manipulates the gene pool. Only those who kept quiet and kept below the parapet were allowed to stay and to live.

 

Exactly - you have hit our problem on the head. Except that this kind of thing went on before the Scots arrived and alongside them until the 1700s. The German and Dutch traders kept Shetland under a tight leash and no doubt we did little to argue.

 

We are a product of our past. Only a few are willing to challenge so we will be limited to this kind of thinking for the foreseeable future.

[roadslave]

I am Shetland I may not be your cup of tea, but I will stand up and be counted, the scoties and the guffies hold no fear for me I will put me head above the parepit and come on you thievin (** MOD EDIT **) prove me wrong.

 

Sorry Sheepshagger, i missed your quote. Clearly you are very committed but my point is you are a-typical. If the majority of us Shelties were of the same mind we would have self-determination. But, unfortunately, i reckon 70-90% just don't care enough. Simple as that...

[Trønder]

a) Jurisdiction over land transactions remained with the court at Bergen for a long time and undisputed. Decisions were sent to the Scottish privy council just as a matter of information and confirmation.

I actually found an article about a post-pawning letter from Shetland about the lagmann in Bergen a while back and posted it in another thread here. Perhaps you have already seen it?

 

http://www.ub.uib.no/avdeling/spes/diplom/1509.htm

 

From other pawnings made by Christian - for examples some of his home estate in Sleswig-Holsatia - we do know that the term "lands and rights" did include the right to establish some kind of administration ... that was at least some form of organization allowing to collect taxes in between ... but no transfer of feudal overlordship.

 

c) And than we do have the note of that member of the Hamburg Senade representing the hanseatic league at a riksdaag in Copenhagn. That man - Justitiar to the Senade of Hamburg - noted on the back of his report that the earldom of Orkney was expected to be represented by Archdeacon of Shetland - but that guy did not show up. So, just 100 years later the "international diplomatic understanding" of the affair simply was, that the Kings of the United Kindom of Danmark and Norway were still regarded as being the rightful overlords of (Orkney including) Shetland.

 

As a Hamburger I do trust in my Senade ...

I do have to admitt that the fact that this guy did not show up may indicate that those folks holding the powers locally by then might have had a completely different understanding of the situation ...

That is very interesting.

 

Sorry for my poor English ...

Nah, your English is fine... but then I'm not a native speaker either.

[islandhopper]

@Sheepshagger:

Happy you are ... although I've missed your original posts before the various "mod edits" ... to call yourself a Shetlander.

Just for illustration: I can trace back my mother's family tree to the early 13th century, my father's line back to the early 14th century. Since then my family spread all over Europe from the Caucasian area to Scotland.

Me is now living for 38 years in Hamburg and there is just another period during the 17th century when the families lived in close neighbourship in Eastern Prussia, now Russia. Do you have any ideas about what I am???

My roots here or there may be weak ... your roots may be strong: But what's about the tree which has to be feeded from rotten roots? Please, don't take it personally, but sometimes it might be better to cut the branches ...

 

@Trønder:

Agreed ... and more I do think we are all bound to the views of traditional - that's to say: 19th century history - making corrections here or there. I really don't neglect the merits of a WPL Thomson or a B Crawford but - looking from the ouside - I sometimes would welcome the independent judgement of someone who is involved less emotional ... not to talk about those who willingly do missunderstand their findings ...

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

WOW som strong ergumints gaen on here, i wid joost lik tae mak a point dat

I f shetland is gaen tae git onywhar wis dis autonomy ting, hit needs tae com wi education, if yu start tae layrn fok da history an gee dem da chance tae mak up dir ain mynds,

am hoopin tae git somthin gaen athin da scallawa skul nixt year on da history o shetland, fae da picts throo tae norwas colonisashun o shetland/orkney da "pawning" on scotlands influince on shetland,am hoopin dis wid hae da possabylity o gitin orkney skuls and mibe evin Norwa skuls involved as weel, i duna tink ony o shetland/orkney/norwa history is towt in eydir place.

 

How wid shetland du a public vote on dis i windir, dir is a lot o fok here dat com fae scottesh bakgrunds, hae com here tae byde fae scotland an aa da english eens tow.

Du day hae da ryte tae a vote? wid it joost b shetlandirs onli?

If yu say aabody kin vote den obviously aa da scots ir gaen tae vote tae byd wi scotland, da english i duna ken whit dayd vote an o coors shetlandirs wid vote fur shetland(mibee) da scottesh minority wid/myt b enoff tae keep shetland fae comin autonomus,

Is it moraly wrang tae tell sombdy day cana vote if day duna com fae dat country? (mynd scotland kin vote on english maytirs in parlyment but no da iddir wy aroond)

Shetland wid need a solid trustworthy cooncil tae run da place fur a keekaff.

 

Wid Norwa claim wis bak? to much o a change an a dat i hear yu moan.

Yis but joost tink how da turdlandirs felt whin da scots arrived an took owir banin da spikin o Norn ryt awa fur exampil.

I f wi wir tae gae bak tae norwa it wid hae tae b a gradual shift startin wi education an wid tak a good few years, but hit is possabl.

 

Wid shetland gae autonomus but remain payrt o da croon? dat wid sem da logical choice lik da Isle o Man, hits its ain wi aa hits ain parliment mony ect. but remains payrt o da croon.

 

If yu took da vote enoo myst shetlandirs wid say "joost layf hit as is", bekis myst o dem duna hae da complete knowledge o da history, kis dy hivna been teacht hit or irna evin awar o ony possibl shenanigins by Denmark/scotland.

Da point am tryin tae mak is dat afor yu gae an launch a scotland forever or shetland fur hits ain gain kynd o speech reserch da history an documents mak up yer ayn mynd. fur aa da eens dat hiv researched den spik awa!!

I fur wan amna sure whit tae du, but i wid lik tae see shetland haen mare sae owir hits ain needs,an wir ain mony goin bak intae wir industry, i duna ken how scotland kin say dis is da wy hits gaen tae b dun an sae on..(yu cana drive a car fae da baksyt)

Only wi foks education kin tings go onywhar an dat shood start at skul level, hits a braaly interestin subject onywi withoot aa da ergy bergy dat gaes on.

wi da scots rysin fur independance hits tyme fur shetland tae stand up fur hitsel an dat taks aabody but wha cares? i du an i bet a helluva lot mare wid du if dy cood be budderd or layrnt da history.

[abraxas]

Is this for real?? Ye're arguin' about something that happened nearly 600 years ago an' expectin' te turn the clocks back? What about the Clearances then? Does that mean we can kick out all the folk whose ancestors benefited as a result an' give back the land? Then there's the compensayshun fer all the sufferin' inflicted on those who were cleared. Then there's the problem o' genetic assay o' the entire feckin' population, cuz that's the only way ye'll know who's Scots or otherwise. An' those who say yez aren't Scots might get a helluva shock when the results get back from these tests.

 

Right wing? Ye're not wrong! Some o' this is real 1984/Hitler Youth style stuff. Blamin' all yer perceived wrongs an' disadvantages on others, the guff about only pure Shetlanders bein' allowed to vote, etc. What is a pure Shetlander? How far back d'yez go? Who decides? What about the "mongrels" amongst yez?

 

Yez speak Scots, not Norwegian (other than a tiny minority). It'd be like the Western Isles tryin' te get rid o' everyone that wasn't a Gael, tho' it'd be easier there, cuz at least they have their own language and distinctive genetic traits, rather than a dialect which is Scots in origin.

 

What about the Picts? If I tested as havin' some o' their traits, I could lay claim te the whole shishmabang an' rule out awyezvotes, by yer own reasoning. Then yer arses would be in a sling, cuz it'd be mine, all mine!!! BWAH! HA! HA! HA! (ahem.. sorry! )

 

Get a life!

[Trønder]

am hoopin tae git somthin gaen athin da scallawa skul nixt year on da history o shetland, fae da picts throo tae norwas colonisashun o shetland/orkney da "pawning" on scotlands influince on shetland,am hoopin dis wid hae da possabylity o gitin orkney skuls and mibe evin Norwa skuls involved as weel, i duna tink ony o shetland/orkney/norwa history is towt in eydir place.

To be honest I don't remember, but we were obviously taught about Norway's expansion into the west (Noregsveldet) and the later union with Denmark. I would imagine that Orkney and Shetland were mentioned somewhere in there. It would surprise me a lot if this isn't part of the history education in Orkney and Shetland though, as the change from Norway to Scotland was a crossroads, if not the crossroads, in your history.

 

How wid shetland du a public vote on dis i windir, dir is a lot o fok here dat com fae scottesh bakgrunds, hae com here tae byde fae scotland an aa da english eens tow.

Du day hae da ryte tae a vote? wid it joost b shetlandirs onli?

I don't see how you can use any other census than the one you use for the local elections.

 

If yu say aabody kin vote den obviously aa da scots ir gaen tae vote tae byd wi scotland, da english i duna ken whit dayd vote an o coors shetlandirs wid vote fur shetland(mibee) da scottesh minority wid/myt b enoff tae keep shetland fae comin autonomus...

Don't dismiss them so easily. So-called non-natives can often be just as committed to the cause. Many of the early Irish nationalists were protestants. Many of the people now calling for Cornwall to be recognised as a home nation are from English families. Many of the people who worked for Norwegian interests in 1918 were from Danish families. The only Norwegian general to get a significant victory against the Germans during the invasion in 1940, Carl Gustav Fleischer, was of German stock. The man who secured independence for Brazil was a Portuguese prince. History is full of these examples.

 

If you want more autonomy for Shetland then it would be a mistake to exclude them. Of course, it would be a mistake under any circumstance.

 

Is it moraly wrang tae tell sombdy day cana vote if day duna com fae dat country? (mynd scotland kin vote on english maytirs in parlyment but no da iddir wy aroond)

Westminster retains the power to overrule the devolved parliaments.

 

Wid Norwa claim wis bak? to much o a change an a dat i hear yu moan.

Yis but joost tink how da turdlandirs felt whin da scots arrived an took owir banin da spikin o Norn ryt awa fur exampil.

I f wi wir tae gae bak tae norwa it wid hae tae b a gradual shift startin wi education an wid tak a good few years, but hit is possabl.

One thing is certain, Norway will not initiate such a process. We have a very good relationship with Scotland and the UK, and will not risk it by going ahead with another Greenland Case even if we wanted to. Your future is in your hands, as it should be, even though it would not be without silent support across Norway if you decided you wanted a closer relationship. There are however many options for you to consider; increased autonomy, crown dependency, full independence, etc..

 

In the unlikely event that you did chose to "go back to Norway", and Norway agreed after negotiations, then I don't see why you would have to change anything. If one were to speculate I would imagine that the way it would be done was for Shetland to become a "biland" (dependency) of sorts. The three current Norwegian dependencies are uninhabited, but the law can always be amended to take into account a populated one. Then the Norwegian monarch would be your head of state, represented in Shetland by a Shetlander appointed Sysselman/Governor no doubt. The Norwegian military would handle defence and coast guard duties and Shetland would be formally represented internationally by Norway, probably with significant Shetlandic involvement (Shetlandic representation in the Nordic Council, etc.). Other than that, and maybe some sort of co-financing of shared expenses, you would pretty much run yourself.

 

As I said earlier, it is up to you, but it is important to realise that it can be done. If you can demonstrate a democratic majority for one option then it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Edinburgh and London to ignore it.

[north]

Maybe King Sandy of Twageos?

 

Or

 

King Morgan of Waast Bye?

 

They would have to fight to the death to establish who would be King, and then take on any others who want a chance! The preliminary rounds for the challengers would be fought at midnight every Saturday night at the Market Cross - just like in the old days.

 

The worst thing about independence would be the leadership. Much the same as is going on today, only with even more power! Scary thought.

[JAStewart]

Everyone thinks that the SIC is corrupt.. incompetent.. useless etc, what makes you think that a new bunch of shetlanders would do any better if they had MORE responsibilities?

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

@ abraxas, dus obviously BRAALY pro scotland but tae sae wi spik scots isna 100% troo, hits a mixtir o Norn,brokin scots an brokin english.

Norn wis shetlands dialect til scotland arrived an dy banned hit an unfortunatly dirs no much o hit writtin doon tae layrn.

 

An i suppose du wid b a fur scotland tae stay payrt o england den, du widna lik independance fur de country dat his been undir engish rule for who lang mibe 600 od year is hit?

weel du must b da only scot i ken dat wants dat.

in my view scotland his iviry ryte tae go fur independance so why no shetland?

eftir aa england didna invade an colonise scotland so it really dusna hae ony ryte tae had on tae dem an da likwise fur scotland wi shetland, if du sits doon an reeds da complete history du myte undirstand.

yis dir will b a hell o a lot o scots genes troo nearly aa shetlandirs but dirs stil da scandinavian gene in wis which i wis telt wis 32%.

Shetland dusno feel scottesh an wi dunna hae a scotesh accent.

wi feel lik shetlandirs, whaydir dirs mare scandinavian genes or scottish genes or whitever, shetlandirs feel shetland!! shetlandirs wi mare o a prominint scottesh bakgrund myt feel mare scottesh (i.e. dir parents ir mibe scottesh).

gitn bak tae de point aboot maytirs dat happend 600 years ago bein relevint daday yis hit damn weel is relevant joost as much as ony iddir point in time wi shetlands history, joost kis hit wis 600 year ago shoodna mak hit irrelvant. dat meens aa history a owir da wurld shood be irrelevant an laws dat wir mayd up hundrids o years ago an are stil enforced daday irrelevint, weel if dats da kis den scotlands legitamate claim to shetland wi King christian da I an aa dat documents wid be irrelevant so scotland cood hae nae claim owir wis! dus du see whit am sayin? dat maks shetland goin fur independance aa da mare ayseir!

I f yu say wir history shoodna maytir den i nivir want tae hear annidir scot complainin aboot whit da english did a da hundirs o year ago an wallace an aa dat. is dat no a fair stitmynt? i tink so.

 

dis is a gret muckle subject wance yu reed aa aboot hit, an yu shoodna joost decide kis yur a scot yu want tae stay wi scotland an if yur a shetlandir yu shood git independance.

wi aa need tae study da history lik av sayd afore den mak wir ain desishun. as tae whits best for shetland as a community!! no joost whit wid benefit scotland hitsel.

 

lets please no resort tae myndnumbin insults an slaggin fok aff hit dusna acheev onyting duin dat.

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

yis JA bit till me whit government onywhar in da wurld isna corupt, usleliss etc. at ony tyme?

[Roachmill]

Norn wis shetlands dialect til scotland arrived an dy banned hit an unfortunatly dirs no much o hit writtin doon tae layrn.

Likewise for the Pictish language spoken long afore any axe wielding Viking set foot on the isle to do away with their way of life. But everyone loves a Viking, huh

[digitaldodo]

"what I don't have is self determination"

 

Sheepshagger - a self-confessed bigoted right-wing extremist like you will never have self-determination.

 

As soon as you actually do "stick your head above the parapit" and run on a public platform, instead of whingeing anonymously on Shetlink, you'll be seen for whit you are and have as much chance o election as the NF wi any decent minded population.

 

My great great grandfather was one of the pioneers of the Faroe cod fishery - a great skipper by all accounts - his son was an acknowledged hero at sea saving the crew of a Danish schooner and one of their anscestors was an ABS (probably pressganged) on the Victory when Nelson got potted by a sniper. That's all fine and dandy, doesn't make my opinions any more valid (or theirs if they coukd spik noo) than anyone else's.

 

On another point, as far as I can see all this about what documents of 600 year ago really mean is pure "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" stuff. It means precisely Jack S*** about the situation of today. When Shetland and Orkney was transferred/loaned - call it what you will - to Scotland it was precisely because Scandinavian power was on the wane and Scottish fortunes on the rise at the that time. The rest of the salad-dressing about dowries and redemption clauses is as relevant as fossilised mammoth s*** and has been entirely superceded by 600 years of reality.

 

As an example - do you think we'd have heard the first word about Britian's lease of Hong Kong running out in 2000 had China been a small, weak, powerless country - apart from on some obscure bitching Chinese website? No.

 

Now I think a bit more autonomy for Shetland in principal is a very good thing, but there is also a very disturbing number of dimwits and corrupt "good old boys" in the SIC. They also seem to have absolutely f-all business acumen including the chief exec who supposedly came from a business backgrund.

 

The quality of leadership is something that seriously needs to be addressed here - and afore you go ranting about the SNP again, Salmond and co are light years ahead of the political representaiton of Shetland as it stands.

 

How is a better quality leadership to be achieved?

 

 

[DePooperit]

@ abraxas, dus obviously BRAALY pro scotland but tae sae wi spik scots isna 100% troo, hits a mixtir o Norn,brokin scots an brokin english.

Norn wis shetlands dialect til scotland arrived an dy banned hit an unfortunatly dirs no much o hit writtin doon tae layrn.

 

Whit's 'brocken' aboot da Scots an English pairts o Shaetlan? Du micht as weel say at English is 'brocken' Latin, French an Greek.

 

An wha says at onybody 'banned' Norn? Hit's far mair laekly at da Shaetlan fock gied it up caase dey tocht it wis brocken Norwegian, mair or less da sam as dey'r giein up da Shaetlan tongue da day.