A Real Chance for Shetland Home Rule

[Njugle]

Where Shetland sits in all of this is a moot point.

 

Moot perhaps, but worth remembering the last time this situation played out, Westminster voted to support Shetland remaining as part of the UK, distinct from an independent Scotland.

 

Some local representatives subsequently backed down under lobbying from the then Secretary of State, and the independence move for Scotland never occurred, but the groundwork and precedent was set for Shetland to effectively separate from an independent Scotland.

 

In retrospect, one would have to wonder why the Secretary of State for Scotland was worried about losing Shetland, if it were not a key part in the Scottish independence movement. Following the point through, if the priority is there, there may well have been more behind it that purely caring for our wellbeing.

 

The other point in all this, is that if certain current elected members would refrain from endeavouring to embarrass Shetland in the eyes of the world for no apparent reason other than sensationalism, we would be in a much more stable position whichever way the national political wind blows. Thanks to their recent efforts, the idea that the SIC is unstable is widely available in the media, should anyone want to portray it that way. Hopefully Buchan can both stabilise the authority and reign in the errant individuals.

[EM]

A Shetland independence party called the Shetland Movement

The Shetland Movement's manifesto was about seeking amd maintaining local autonomy, not independence.

 

...has been tried in the recent past and was totally rejected by voters

Really? I must presume you have quite a strange threshold for determining total rejection. From your statement one would expect they had either completely failed to have any members elected, or at best managed to grab a few percent of the polls. The reality was quite different. At their zenith about a quarter of the councillors had been elected on a declared Shetland Movement affiliation, and a large number of the independents were known to be unaffiliated members or supporters. The party typically held many of the key SIC posts including convenor. They were the main party and De Facto the ruling group.

 

Also when the Shetland Movement ceased being represented in the council, it was not due to electoral defeat, but rather due to their own decision to mothball the party.

[scottish skier]

As I understand it the Scottish Regional Assembly can only hold a referendum to ask for a mandate for the Scottish government to negotiate terms for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom. If that referendum is won and suitable terms negotiated, then there will have to be a another referendum (called by Westminster) to see if those terms are agreeable to the populace before Scotland can leave the UK.

 

Where Shetland sits in all of this is a moot point. Also lets not assume that Norway would wish to to take on responsibility for Shetland.

 

Feel I'm butting in your forum here - I hope it's ok. This is interesting issue for me, particularly as I work in the oil and gas industry - while I have not been to shetland, I feel I have! In fact have recently been consulting on Laggan Tormore and the tie in to FUKA via shetland.

 

If Scotland votes for independence, westminster could say no, but is not really in a position too, unless it's ready to do it Gaddafi style But yes, of course their would be various T & C's to hammer out.

 

As far as I understand it, the SNP support the Shetland movement and stood aside for them in the 1987 election. Not sure of current stance, but it would surprise me if the view had changed at all.

[DePooperit]

Pity the beer is so expensive

 

The salient point. With booze being expensive in Norway, and the SNP bringing in a minimum price in Scotland, you don't need to look any further for a strong political motivation for Shetland to continue to be governed from Westminster.

[Ghostrider]

@ Scottish Skier: I don't doubt equal persecution by the land owning classes was of the rest of the population was meted out in the Scottish Highlands than was in Shetland, but what you have to understand is that while the practice may have been the same, the persepctive of the victims was entirely different.

 

In the Highlands it can be reasonably compared to a civil war, it was one class of Scots persecuting another class of Scots, however in Shetland it was more akin to a invasion by a foreign power. When it began, Shetland while with some Scottish influences and connections, was effectively a Scandinavian nation. The vanguard of Scots who came here were the illegitimate offspring of Scots Royaly and Nobility, and members of their sundry extended family, lackeys and hangers on, who pretty much, by fair means or foul took whatever caught their eye, and did pretty much whatever they felt like with both place and people. Scotland, with almost all the people who had the power to keep check on those who came here, was too far away to really be aware of what their countrymen were getting up to up here, even if they cared. It was only Earl Patrick and his ilk who when they go so out of hand that they started to cause concern among other nobility (unsurprisingly it only seemed to be when there didn't seem to be the expected level of taxes being sent south that any interest was taken) that either notice or action was ever taken.

 

Certainly Patrick was a watershed of sorts, he proved how far one could go, or not go before one ran the risk of coming to the attention of greater powers, and risking losing one's head. Those who escaped Patrick's fate because they at that time had not risen to a similar level of power, and those who followed, seemed to learn from his tale of woe, and tread a fine line where they did and took what they liked here, but only insofar as it didn't cross in to territory that attracted attention south of Fair Isle. Not a hell of a lot changed on the ground though, the population were systematically turned in to slaves from the cradle to the grave with no way out of it, by those who had possession in the eyes of the "law" of the land on which they dwelled. The vast majority of whom were Scots incomers, and their descendants, and remained so. The small pool of landed familes inter-married amongst themselves and perhaps with Minister's familes, the vast majority of whom were also Scots incomers. There was extremely little integration of the Scots familes and natives, they themselves maintained a very clear and distinct "them and us" society, which simply reinforced the "occupier and occupied" mindset in the native population.

 

That situation endured throughout the centuries, the clearances only came during the 19th Century, and were, I suppose the straw that finally broke the camel's back and caused the English rulers, who for the most part didn't really appreciate "Shetland" existed, to finally take an interest and a hand in just what was happening here. The Crofting Acts which followed took a further decade or three to finally break the landed families grip of steel, the old system quietly died and most of the landed families, if they hadn't previously imploded through their own incompetence and/or greed, quietly faded away with the demise of the system that supported them.

 

Therefor from a Shetlander's perspective you have foreign (Scots) nationals who invaded and took over everything and enslaved the population, and the situation remained in place for over 400 years, until the English, who by then had become the invaders masters, came to see what they were up to, and effectively "liberated" the population from the invaders tyranny.

 

I think it would be fair to say that there is no particular greivance towards the Scottish people in general, the greivance is towards Scots with power to govern at any level. The Scots Royalty and Nobility when we were annexed to Scotland and for as long as Scotland existed as an independent nation did us no favours whatsoever, in fact it has always been a widely held perception that the Royals and Nobility "encouraged" the more "black sheep" members of their families to come here so that they were "out of sight and out of mind" and not causing trouble or embarrassment within the "posher" circles to their more "respectable" (as they saw themselves) family members wished to create an impression in. Others who came in the early days were preceived to be dubious characters, some were probably nothing more than opportunists who figured they could make a killing in peace here with little hinderance to how they did it, others would seem to have been "obliged" to relocate to put some distance between themselves and the enemies they'd cultivated by their methods of operation elsewhere, which of course they could continue to practice here with a significant level of impunity.

 

In short, Shetlanders saw it as the higher echelons of Scottish society using Shetland as a "dumping ground" for the more unsavoury characters within their ranks, then ignoring the fact they were using and abusing the place and people once they were here.

 

Yes, a lot of water under the bridge and all that, and the sentiment has faded immensely. However old habits die hard, and "Scotland" ie. those who hold any positions of power, have done extremely little to convince us that they are really any different that their predecessors one, two, or more centuries ago.

 

In recent history, anything Shetland negotiated direct with Westminster we always seemed to get a reasonably fair hearing and a reasonable outcome without having to fight tooth and nail. Anything we negotiated with teh Scottish Office though was invariably a whole other story, pulling hen's teeth would have been easier most of the time. The actions of the SNP while they have held power in the Scottish Parliament have been no more encouraging. They've given cheaper ferry fares to the Western Isles, but none for us....We have a crisis shortage of social housing, yet they knocked up back for any funding to provide any. Citing the fact we're already carrying a large housing debt several decades old.... Fine, but it was incurred providing housing for the sudden influx of population when oil came....It was exceptional expenditure which we had no choice but incur, and its a bit of a red herring to hold that over us when no exceptional assistance has been offered to help clear it. We've not moaned and complained while we've serviced and paid off what we could of that borrowing for over 30 years, yet even having done so, we're not being penalised because it still exists. I think they call that a double whammy. Yes, these are relatively small issues, but each one just adds a few nails to reinforcing the old attitude that still lingers in the back of the mind of many Shetlanders, that "Scotland is only interested in us when they want something", it is only just over a century since that statement was very true, and had been true for the four centuries prior.

 

I'm afraid before "Scotland" is unconditionally welcomed as a friend by all Shetlanders, "Scotland" will need to find some way of finally killing of the legacy stretching back to the 16th Century of their Royalty not being able to keep their troosers on, then dumping the more embarrasing examples of the results on us without a care, and the higher elements of "Scottish" society's inability to rein in and curtail their more unsavoury characters where they were, but instead shunt them off here where it "wouldn't matter" what they got up to.

 

Shetland and Shetlanders got a very raw deal from from "Scotland" from 1469 until the English waded in with the Crofting Acts. I think we're well justified in being suspicious and wary, once bitten.....

[GT]

^^^^^

Good summary Ghostrider

 

The last clearances in Shetland were not all that long ago in terms of generations. I knew all my grandparents and two sets of them were cleared from the Garth estates - ok they were only very young bairns at the time but I can remember them talking in some detail about the man who cleared their families.

[scottish skier]

@ Scottish Skier:.... I think we're well justified in being suspicious and wary, once bitten.....

 

Thank you for your very informative post. I have learned a lot in the past few days; hours of reading around on the internet will not make up for hearing the views of Shetlanders first hand. I appreciate you accomodating an interloper!

 

As I’ve said before I’m not visiting this forum to convince Shetlanders that joining up with the Scots is the best way forward for them. Nor am I here to try and convince Shetlanders that the unsavoury ‘Scots’ lords that have ruled there in the past were just ‘misunderstood’ ; I see no justification for disputing much of what you say/what I have learned. What I guess I am here to do is learn and at the same time put across the view of the ‘average’ Scot who votes nationalist.

 

I think we fully agree on the Robert Stuart et al. issue – which Scotland completely failed Shetland on. In terms of near serfdom and the clearances, the Scots suffered as heinously as the Shetlanders. Sad times for both lands.

 

One thing I will say is that ‘The Scottish Office’ was not a government of Scotland, but simply a Westminster unionist tool for the management of Scotland. The Scottish Office was probably the most reviled organisation in Scotland. When Shetland and the Highlands/Islands were fighting for crofters rights, they were not fighting the government of Scotland, nor its people, they were fighting Westminster’s representation in Scotland. The fact that they had to bypass the local boss (Scottish Office) and kick up a fuss with the big boss (Westminster) shows how little Westminster cared for the far north of Britain. A solid majority of Scots hated the Scottish Office and all it stood for. Please never associate that institution with the (majority of the) people of Scotland.

 

I think the thing to remember about what happened in Scotland recently is how momentous it is. For the first time in the history of a nation that stretches back over 1100 years, have the people of that nation have the opportunity to decide their own future democratically.

 

You will hear many unionists say ‘Scotland willingly joined the Union’ / it was democratic etc. Scotland was sold by a few of its lords without the people of Scotland having the slightest say in the matter. As for democracy in the UK, it took until ~1918 before all men could vote and 1928 before universal suffrage. Scotland has not been ‘democratically’ in the Union for 300 years, but only for ~90 years at best. Even then, if the support was there for independence, it was not up to the Scots, but up to Westminster to decide, not the people of Scotland.

 

For the past 300 years there has always been a strong core of Scots who support home rule. There have been numerous rebellions; which is hardly indicative of a country supposedly ‘democratically’ within the UK. At the first opportunity, the Scots voted for home rule in 1979 in majority, but it was denied to them by Westminster against all the principles of democracy. Given another chance in 1997 and they voted yes again. They then voted massively (one of the biggest shares of the vote in any democracy within the past few decades) for the SNP, with support for Unionist parties crumbling.

 

Scots now have an opportunity no Scot has ever had before. How they use it is up to them, but it is truly historic.

 

As for the SNP, which seem to lack popularity in Shetland. The lords and lairds that treated Shetland badly were not elected by the Scots; they were the ‘privileged’ upper classes that pervaded throughout Europe at the time. The Scottish Office was not elected by the Scots, but was a tool of unionist Westminster. The Scottish Executive was elected by the Scots, but with only 20% of powers, the Scots still do not rule Scotland, nor Shetland; Westminster does. However, the Scots have voted for the right to choose their future. The SNP are for the Scots and if Scotland votes for independence, then the Scots people will assume responsibility for how it acts towards its neighbours.

 

I don’t expect Shetlanders to be all excited/warm/fuzzy about the above, not if they feel they are ‘Shetlanders’ ahead of anything else. However, the SNP are as close as you can get to actually representing the Scots people; something no Westminster government, Scottish Office nor 19th century laird has ever done. In that sense, they are not ‘a parcel of rogues’ as the real rogues were never vote for.

 

As for Sheltand? Well, do you honestly think David Cameron et al. love Shetland and will look after you? What will happen when the oil runs dry? Will Scotland be any better? I would say maybe a little at least on the basic principle you’d have 1 MSP out of 120 rather than 0.5 out of 650. Personally, given my inherent nationalism, if I was a Shetlander, I’d want autonomy of some stronger form and I’d want to use the current oil and gas/future renewable electricity ace in seeing who (Scotland if independent, UK, Norway) wants to negotiate.

 

If there is one bit of advice I can give, it is to get off backsides and do something. I’ve been waiting 35 years for an SNP government because the Scots were too busy sitting around complaining, voting Labour to keep the Tories out, but with too little faith in themselves to do anything about meaningful change.

 

I was in tears at the SNP victory. Not because I love Alex Salmond, not because I think the SNP are the best thing since sliced bread, not because I hate the English, not because I hate the conservatives. None of these are particularly true. I was in tears because the Scots had finally stopped living up to their reputation as feart whingers (according to many south of the border sadly), and actually said – ‘we can do this’, giving all Scots an opportunity to, for the first time in over 1100 years, decide their own destiny as a people.

 

If Shetlanders want what is best for them, I feel they need to do the same. Strike while the iron is hot, for times are changing.

 

Again, thanks for suffering me!

 

PS, if their are any shetlanders on here who are a bit geeky when it comes to the weather, be it snow, storms, heatwaves (I wish), feel free to visit my 'home' forum. We have a kilted thread which a few shetlanders post on, keeping us informed of approaching arctic blasts and snow prospects.

 

www.netweather.tv

 

I also post on the politics thread funnily enough

 

Cheers,

 

SS

[derick]

CAPITALS NO SHOUTING JOOST SO YOU CAN SEE DEM

 

(*** Mod edit - removed capitals and inserted quotes for readability***)

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Scottish skier posts a remarkable lack of knowledge of Scottish and Shetland history and confuses the late medieval with the 400 years of Scots oppression

 

Eh, whit aboot 300 years o Norse oppression oda rightful Pictish inhabitants o Cattland aka Hyatland aka Shetland

 

That is a very valid point Scottish skier. We need to set up a Shetland Party, a party that lookks out solely for the benefits of Shetland. Where's Billy Fox when we need him

 

Saving Tavish's bacon?

 

Moot perhaps, but worth remembering the last time this situation played out, Westminster voted to support Shetland remaining as part of the UK, distinct from an independent Scotland.

 

Dis is ida public domain - Westmister did dat becis great allegedly Britain wis bankrupt so dey used divide and rule ta keep da oil. An shelties chose ta go wi dat. Which is no necessarily a wrong choice. Ida short term.

In retrospect, one would have to wonder why the Secretary of State for Scotland was worried about losing Shetland

Becis he wis/is Westminster's man in Scotland

 

In the Highlands it can be reasonably compared to a civil war, it was one class of Scots persecuting another class of Scots, however in Shetland it was more akin to a invasion by a foreign power.

No - dat is a unionist 'loyalist' perspective dreamt up bi Shetland British unionists as a reaction tae liberal home rule ida 19th century

 

Earl Patrick stuff an dat - wha says? Whit is da primary source? ^^

 

caused the English rulers, who for the most part didn't really appreciate "Shetland" existed, to finally take an interest and a hand in just what was happening here. The Crofting Acts which followed

Too simplistic. Dey still didna get it. But - broader fashion against slavery, votts fur weemen, misapplied analogy wi Ireland. Crofting acts applied wider as Shetlan, whit aboot da highland land league at dey laekly towt wis da sam as da Irish land league?

 

I think it would be fair to say that there is no particular greivance towards the Scottish people in general, the greivance is towards Scots with power to govern at any level

mmmm. A peerie bit o contradiction dere. I towt better o dee boy. Still as we 'keen' Scots is racially incapable o excercisin pooer at ony level due ta genetic inferiority.

 

In recent history, anything Shetland negotiated direct with Westminster we always seemed to get a reasonably fair hearing

Due tae implicitly acceptin divide and rule as notted abue wisna an unreasonalbe choice [altho haein towt aboot it fur a while, i feel dat wis da morality o prostitution]

and a reasonable outcome without having to fight tooth and nail. Anything we negotiated with teh Scottish Office

As Scottish skier said Scottish office was [an is] no more Scottish as pumpkin and pie.

The actions of the SNP while they have held power in the Scottish Parliament have been no more encouraging. They've given cheaper ferry fares to the Western Isles, but none for us....

Wir been troo dis - ret wid a med da ferry dearer. Plus you bloody votted fur Tavish despite da fact he specced ferries at wis use ony fur a shrot crossing [the channel you know cheps] b**ger aa use fur owernight. I speak fae extensive painful experience. Plus he wasted £500m pound on stupit trams in enbra.

We have a crisis shortage of social housing, yet they knocked up back for any funding to provide any.

Not unrelated tae da fact at da coonty's hoosing chief towt at da best wey ta win freends an influence people wis ta hurl abuse at da government. http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk.....nding-plea

whiich plea wisna sufficiently competent ta mak da grade. End of.

Citing the fact we're already carrying a large housing debt several decades old....

Fur da benifit oda 'uk' ie city of London.

- Shetlan or reydir da 3 or 4 fok at med da decision, chose ta tak 'da king's shilling' ida 70s wi da promise o a wink an a nod at debt wid be peyed aff as it wis ida 'national interest' - an whit do you keen, whin da snp 'threat' diminished fur a while, Westminster 'forgot'. Dat is da tanks you get. I spaek as a former Shetland movement supporter at doesna laek finnin oot we wir used and abused becis fok ida 'idder place' towt we wir rural boobies at could be aisy fooled. Correct as it happened?

"Scotland is only interested in us when they want something", it is only just over a century since that statement was very true, and had been true for the four centuries prior.

Ageen - dis is focus on a specific period, fur a specific political objective. I object: whit aboot wis exterminated picts? Equally irrelevant!

I'm afraid before "Scotland" is unconditionally welcomed as a friend by all Shetlanders, "Scotland" will need to find some way of finally killing of the legacy stretching back to the 16th Century Shetland and Shetlanders got a very raw deal from from "Scotland" from 1469 until the English waded in with the Crofting Acts. I think we're well justified in being suspicious and wary, once bitten.

Ageen - too simplistic, an an expression o British Loyalism, 19th century Shetland style. The red hand of Cunningsburgh?

 

Aa dis historical [and fake] p*sh is irrelevant. Absolutely an totally irrelevant.

 

Da choice you hae is Scandinavian social democracy wi Scotland, or red in tooth and claw friedmanite toryism, wi da rump-uk. Pey your money an tak your chance

 

scottish skier - pey no attention tae shetlink - its joost twartree nutters half o wha (da fuils) peyed money ta some sassenach scam merchant [a spoot] at declared some skerry independent. Will dey see da cash ageen? Nope

[Ghostrider]

SCOTTISH SKIER - PEY NO ATTENTION TAE SHETLINK - ITS JOOST TWARTREE NUTTERS....

 

Is far is heer I wis kinda haf tempit ta tink it du wis mebbe tryin ta spaek sense.

 

Him it taks ta ill-caain da tidder een is bye lost dir set tu.

 

Whit kind o' dem ey vots du fur onywye?!? I doot du's skylin it Shaetlin's histiry trow onlee ee brawnd o' pileetikal reek is muckle is onyeen.

[kiltskier]

Unfortunately it will never happen as a sole entity. It will always have to be with Scotland and landan or with just landan. Shetlanders may have more say in what happens.

But for obvious reasons countries align themselves with each other for reasons that the average Joe never knows about. Hence iraq & oil, Libya & oil etc.. up next is Arctic circle & oil, expect more like this in future UK is right to place itself with USA. Yes we have not seen benefits like petrol being as cheap as the USA but that i because of the tax we pay.

Shetland is amazingly placed(only place) for the uk to do anything about it the arctic oil wether it be tankers,pipes or rigs.

You can talk about crofters getting kicked off there land 50 years ago but the real world is a game that gets played outside of the media and what any of us ever read about.

Scotland would be independant if the oil was more expensive Salmond said 4 years ago(And it has since then) to an aquantence. If this does happen and i really hope it does. Google the Mccrone report.

Shetland is a crap place with out the oil now. It was and would be one of the most wonderous places if the oil had not had not been discovered! Look at what happend to the FPC in mossbank and the town with out the oil trade. Would anyone even live there?

Could anywhere in shetland afford to do without the oil? not likely now that lambs are so cheap and fish are at there breaking point. Both are another story!!

Shetland could have its say in terms of learning Norge instead of French and German in school.

I had never been to Norway until 2 years ago and i am bloody disapointed as the standard of living is way above the UK, Beer is expensive if you buy it in a pub but you can still get beer european price cheap in a supermarket.

 

A couple of questions just to open up the possabilities of a real debate:

What does Shetland export apart from oil/fish?

What does Shetland produce and sell to its people e.g. Salad in the summer on tesco shelving?

Why is petrol more expensive in Shetland that anywhere in Europe?

Could Shetland be self sufficient if it had no oil?

Could benefits idiots be self sufficient if they had to be in shetland and pull together as a communinity?

Does Shetland have a MASSIVE bank account for when it all fails with the oil? e.g. Shetland roads are subsidised by 30million if that is NOT spent on roads they do NOT get that amount next year. Why not save what was not needed in an account for a rainy day. Otherwise it promotes frivolous spending by the council(who are already over frivolously paid) and then average people who live on an island spend Frivolously because they seen it as the done thing!

 

Norway gives its people more in terms of a community they pay higher taxes but get the subsidies elsewhere. They are a massive community because of it.

The UK is influenced by the US and Europe and mainly take the bad bits from both self worth and greed from bankers/MPs being the hot topic and when the everyday person sees this they react the same way hence house sales and everyone out to get as MUCH(there is actually a new word for this, not greed but as a a market trend) as possible for their house as they could in an already inflated market.

The EU will collapse in ten/fifteen years and the Euro in 5/10. The rich nations do not want to pay for the poor ones and likewise will happen for Scotland when oil does get even more expensive.What does England export(not the best car industry as an example like Scotland the home grown skills and trades are obsolete by telecoms and call centre personel) But they NEED England and the US if they are to try for Arctic oil and command a better place in the market and a bigger player in world politics overall.Even though there have been Scots in #10 for a while they have never been true Scots with Scotland as #1 priority

Salmond is a legend in my eyes as he is edging towards it like a proper politician and tapering how he sees the people may best benefit. Free education/subcriptions etc..

More realistic is how about running the UK from Glasgow with the SNP in control of Scotland from Edinburgh? Spreading the wealth better.

[Njugle]

What is it with skiers in this thread? Coincidence or some connection?

[EM]

What does Shetland export apart from oil/fish?

Brains.

[shetlandpeat]

That seems to be one way according to some here.

[crofter]

now that lambs are so cheap and fish are at there breaking point. Both are another story!!

 

Lambs have never been worth so much. Same with fish.

[derick]

 

 

Him it taks ta ill-caain da tidder een is bye lost dir set tu.

 

 

aye - fair point. I got kerried awey wi mesel. Still a guid rant does you good aff an ageen!

 

I hae nae time fur Fake Vikings (Joost a weird late 19th Century hingower)

but dey irna da real Shetlan in it's infinite mad variety.

 

an I REALLY hae no time for bampots ida daily Torygraph at spoots aboot 'freedom' fur 'The Shetlands' fur political gain.

 

Shetland needs ta engage properly wi Holyrood an get in dere, no joost troitle at da back oda hall. Joost whit I tink.