Shetland's broken society.

[George.]

 

Grange is much nicer, it is improving

 

Oh, thank God - He said Grange - I thought he was on about Grangemouth and my heart sank

[OP8S]

Can anyone explain why the council tend to clump all the nut jobs together in the same places (Mossbank, Toy town in Brae etc)? Surely if they were isolated from their peers they would find it easier to change their behaviour. I think some tough love is called for with these trouble makers. The softly softly holistic approach doesn't seem to be working.

I don't think that the UK has a " softly, softly holistic approach " to what you refer to as nut jobs, bearing in mind that they may think you a nut job. Our prison system is fit to burst, so much so that we are now going down the road of putting penal institutions out to tender in the private sector. We as a country could remedy this situation quite simply by changes in legislation, particularlly the 1971 Mis-use of drugs act. Countries in the EU that have either de-criminalised the use of substances for personal use, or made it legal to have them supplied by means of prescription as Germany, Switzerland & The Netherlands have seen a remarkable drop in drug-related crimes ( 60% in Switzerland ). Saving the tax-payers an enormous amount of money since they don't have to fill up their gaols with users who then need to be fed & watered. Then maybe the extra money could be available to re-habilitate the real criminals. There certainly doesn't appear to be much in the way of re-habilitation at present, it's more like a revolving door. Any kind of re-habilitation is normally down to the individual, not the penal institutions. If anything a sentence in gaol for petty crimes does the exact opposite & the individual leaves with all the knowledge that has been passed onto them by the more hardened offender.

[paulb]

Or we could opt for a serious penalty for use and selling. Singapore jumps to mind.

[crofter]

If anything a sentence in gaol for petty crimes does the exact opposite & the individual leaves with all the knowledge that has been passed onto them by the more hardened offender.

 

And very possibly a fledgling habit.

[OP8S]

Not a fledgling habit but a full blown one is more likely & the connections are made with dealers on the mainland so that the individuals habit can be maintained by small time dealing.

As for commiting an individual to a death sentence as is done in some countries, evidence shows that it isn't much of a deterent, as the people that are in control of the drugs trade use poverty stricken folk to do their business for them. People are sentenced to death regularily but the trade in illicit substances continues, run by wealthy & corrupt capitalists that never get their hands dirty. The poorest people of the world are two a penny to those in control of one of the worlds largest economies.

Generally anybody with a compassionate bone in their body disagrees with the death penalty nowadays anyway, it's not exactly the mark of a civilised society.

[soundview]

Can anyone explain why the council tend to clump all the nut jobs together in the same places (Mossbank, Toy town in Brae etc)? Surely if they were isolated from their peers they would find it easier to change their behaviour. I think some tough love is called for with these trouble makers. The softly softly holistic approach doesn't seem to be working.

I don't think that the UK has a " softly, softly holistic approach " to what you refer to as nut jobs, bearing in mind that they may think you a nut job. Our prison system is fit to burst, so much so that we are now going down the road of putting penal institutions out to tender in the private sector. We as a country could remedy this situation quite simply by changes in legislation, particularlly the 1971 Mis-use of drugs act. Countries in the EU that have either de-criminalised the use of substances for personal use, or made it legal to have them supplied by means of prescription as Germany, Switzerland & The Netherlands have seen a remarkable drop in drug-related crimes ( 60% in Switzerland ). Saving the tax-payers an enormous amount of money since they don't have to fill up their gaols with users who then need to be fed & watered. Then maybe the extra money could be available to re-habilitate the real criminals. There certainly doesn't appear to be much in the way of re-habilitation at present, it's more like a revolving door. Any kind of re-habilitation is normally down to the individual, not the penal institutions. If anything a sentence in gaol for petty crimes does the exact opposite & the individual leaves with all the knowledge that has been passed onto them by the more hardened offender.

 

Well obviously if you legalise heroin then heroin related crime will fall, why not legalise everything - yay! No crime at all! However, I don't think I actually mentioned drug users in my comment. There are plenty of folk you wouldn't want living next to you that don't touch illegal drugs.

 

When I was around 10 years old a family, who had a child in every year of the primary school, moved in next door to us who had been relocated from Bracknell. It was like a pantomime every day - 3 year old kids swearing at you as a way of saying good morning, the gastropodal parents fighting in the garden at least once a week (the woman gave as good as the man by the way!), overdoses, even, on one occasion, a lynch mob of angry locals turning up at the gate one Sunday morning intent on goodness knows what (for a crime which I won't divulge). So I know what I am talking about when I use the term "nut jobs".

 

I said before why don't they isolate the trouble makers, I think I have changed my mind, why do these folk get sent up here in the first place, why Shetland? It would be a happier Island withoot them.

[shetlandpeat]

Folk would complain about drug users next door but not the screaming wife beaten by the hands of a partner after a drunken session watching footba at the pub.

There is a string/thread already in place which many folk advocate the regulation of heroin, as you would already know, prescribing heroin is perfectly leagal. If it were done in a controlled way, with the stigma removed, there would be progress, best you go look at the thread/string.

 

It seems that, broken = drug abuse.

 

It may well be, too much drink available.

 

It takes a generation to start to change attitudes. It is up to parents to create that and not expect all others to do it for them. Though, our problem may be that to buy a house in 1980 u needed 3 - 3.5 times your salary to now where you need 8 - 10, though there is a house in Burnley up for 10k. This means that both parents, if present have to work and kids get neglected. This strike is an eye opener. Complaints are more about cost of child care than the opportunity to have your child with you an extra day. A few years ago, no problem. But we think we need to have it all before actually earning the cash first. A big part of the problem, seems kids are a liability if there is no one but parents to care for them.

[dtothet]

Folk would complain about drug users next door but not the screaming wife beaten by the hands of a partner after a drunken session watching footba at the pub.

 

While I don't care about commenting on the rest of this thread I think the quote above is a ridiculous statement. My opinion is that it is untrue, but we can at least all agree it is a generalisation.

 

Why not just go the whole way and say "people would complain about mild mannered drug users going about their business quietly but would watch less mildly mannered people who like more socially acceptable drugs murder and rape without complaining or saying society was broken"

[OP8S]

Domestic violence is widespread & very rarely reported to the police. I'm sure quite a few people notice women as well as men with bruises, scratches etc. on occassion. It is not something that you would ask the victim how these injuries came about, as it is often something that the victim keeps to themselves, or if asked outright then will get the reply that the victim has "walked into a door" , " fallen over " or some other accident has caused the injury. I can recall 2 work colleauges where it was common knowledge that their injuries had been caused by their partner, but due to the nature of the crime where the victim has had their self esteem knocked out of them & actually believe that it is them that are at fault in some way by their controlling partners. The victim feels embarrased that they allow somebody to treat them in this way & so the situation continues.

Can anyone explain why the council tend to clump all the nut jobs together in the same places (Mossbank, Toy town in Brae etc)? Surely if they were isolated from their peers they would find it easier to change their behaviour. I think some tough love is called for with these trouble makers. The softly softly holistic approach doesn't seem to be working.

I don't think that the UK has a " softly, softly holistic approach " to what you refer to as nut jobs, bearing in mind that they may think you a nut job. Our prison system is fit to burst, so much so that we are now going down the road of putting penal institutions out to tender in the private sector. We as a country could remedy this situation quite simply by changes in legislation, particularlly the 1971 Mis-use of drugs act. Countries in the EU that have either de-criminalised the use of substances for personal use, or made it legal to have them supplied by means of prescription as Germany, Switzerland & The Netherlands have seen a remarkable drop in drug-related crimes ( 60% in Switzerland ). Saving the tax-payers an enormous amount of money since they don't have to fill up their gaols with users who then need to be fed & watered. Then maybe the extra money could be available to re-habilitate the real criminals. There certainly doesn't appear to be much in the way of re-habilitation at present, it's more like a revolving door. Any kind of re-habilitation is normally down to the individual, not the penal institutions. If anything a sentence in gaol for petty crimes does the exact opposite & the individual leaves with all the knowledge that has been passed onto them by the more hardened offender.

 

Well obviously if you legalise heroin then heroin related crime will fall, why not legalise everything - yay! No crime at all! However, I don't think I actually mentioned drug users in my comment. There are plenty of folk you wouldn't want living next to you that don't touch illegal drugs.

 

When I was around 10 years old a family, who had a child in every year of the primary school, moved in next door to us who had been relocated from Bracknell. It was like a pantomime every day - 3 year old kids swearing at you as a way of saying good morning, the gastropodal parents fighting in the garden at least once a week (the woman gave as good as the man by the way!), overdoses, even, on one occasion, a lynch mob of angry locals turning up at the gate one Sunday morning intent on goodness knows what (for a crime which I won't divulge). So I know what I am talking about when I use the term "nut jobs".

 

I said before why don't they isolate the trouble makers, I think I have changed my mind, why do these folk get sent up here in the first place, why Shetland? It would be a happier Island withoot them.

I only used the Mis-use of Drugs Act 1971 as an example of how crime rates can be lowered by changes in legislation. Allowing the prison system more resources to deal with the criminals that pose a real threat to society, the real nut-jobs. I was not advocating a move towards a lawless UK, only a nut job would do that.

There are good law-abiding people everywhere, in all walks of life. You are always going to get folk who's behaviour is considered to be nut jobs, mostly because of the enviroment that they have been brought up in & the lack of parental discipline when they were kids. It's up to each & everyone of us to do our best to break this cycle surely.

There has always been crime in shetland as elswhere. I can't understand who is sending nut jobs up to the island, has it become a penal colony in my abscence ?

[George.]

Folk would complain about drug users next door but not the screaming wife beaten by the hands of a partner after a drunken session watching footba at the pub.

 

While I don't care about commenting on the rest of this thread I think the quote above is a ridiculous statement. My opinion is that it is untrue, but we can at least all agree it is a generalisation.

 

Why not just go the whole way and say "people would complain about mild mannered drug users going about their business quietly but would watch less mildly mannered people who like more socially acceptable drugs murder and rape without complaining or saying society was broken"

 

Poindextrose, I would suggest that before any more uninformed comment on the subject, you find out the truth regarding what people will and will not involve themselves in, how much marital violence is reported and how many people do anything about what they hear happening next door.

[soundview]

I don't agree with Shetlandpeat about the wife beating thing - I hope he would go to intervene if he heard his next door neighbour abusing his wife, or at least call the police. Any right minded decent person would do something.

 

I would put wife beating higher up the list of priorities than drug taking (on a personal "how it affects me" level).

[shetlandpeat]

The "wife beating thing" is about domestic violence. This can come in many guises. Folk tend not to get involved, and will not report it. Of course some folk are different with their attitudes.

I see many posts in strings/threads about drug users, pushers that have been caught but no comment made about folk mentioned in respect of assault on family members. Why is that.

 

Attacking drug users/pushers on here and mentioning their name and ADDRESS in the local paper is not really fair, as they have no right to reply. The ST publishing folks details like they do can cause damage that cannot always be put right. A friend of mine suffered this, from what I gather, it ruined his life for many years, he did nothing wrong.

 

This is another part of why society and the way it has developed into a seemingly uncaring monster. Folk are not curtious on the road any more, gents do not raise their caps in front of ladies, kids have to fend for themselves. folk tend to complain more now because of emails and web forms, much of which they could, if they talked again as a collective could be addressed.

 

It is turning into an "I'm alright Jack" thing.

 

The attitudes of folk is the thing that is broken. Even now, someone will pipe up "don't include me in your generalisation", well, I do, because you think that you can opt out. When really, you we are all part of it, there is no opt out.

[Ghostrider]

^^ I don't think you can go blaming the ST, or Shetland News, or whoever for naming names, at least they generally only name those found guilty of whatever. You can call up a list of everyone and anyone who's due to appear in court on any given week, including the details of many civil cases, on the interwebby thingy anytime you like, courtsey of the Court Service themselves.

 

Its all a case of striking a balance of "justice" (whatever that may or may not be, exactly), being done, and being seen to be done. As much of it as is humanly possible has to occur in public to achieve that. If the local media chose not to publish any court news, all it would take was one person nosey enough to make a point of attending every court sitting (and I'm sure there'd be plenty of volunteers - it would be like a morbid version of what Harry Hay's sales were back in the day, there were many who attended every one as a social event....), and who and what the old Sheriff had presided over that day would be around the place on the jungle drums before teatime. I'd see that as a worse option, as the potential for inaccuracies and mistakes would be far greater than in ST reports, and the ability of "opinion" to evolve in to "fact" likewise.

 

In a city enviornment anonymity is easily attained through weight of numbers, in a mostly rural and small town enviornment like Shetland, anonymity is impossible. Its the price one pays for choosing to live here.

 

The only possible option that could increase (but not ensure) anonymity of court proceedings in a place like here would be if it was all done behind closed doors. THAT IMHO would be a monumental mistake, suspicion of a less than level playing criminal justice playing field is rife enough as is, any more secrecy would really bring out the flaming torch and pitchfork mobs.

[EM]

When really, you we are all part of it, there is no opt out.

When reading the Gospels according to Peat I can't help getting a strong whiff of Calvinism. Just as with Calvinism's obsession with total depravity and predestination, it would seem that Peatism decrees we are all inescapably doomed to fail. Were I to believe that (or Calvin for that matter), I'd come to the conclusion that there is no point even trying. A pessimistic philosophy indeed.

[shetlandpeat]

The ST does not print names and addresses of those found Guilty only. This is evident even in bulletins yesterday, along with ShetNews. As the information is already in the public domain, perhaps the printing of folks personal details feeds the needs of a few. Printing the details of those who have been found guilty may be justified, but it seems to work against the fact that the Prison Service has to protect the identity of prisoners. I cannot see how it can be justified to publish details of those just charged. The detrimental effect it can have on the remaining family members at the address or at school and work can be high.

As far as a doom and gloom attitude as quoted by the mostly -ve. As ever, detracting from the thread. I did look it up, as I do not or did not know who I was being compared to with a view of what I scribe. 75 million followers, more than you? I jest. I cannot see the link really. There is good in everyone, it needs, in some to be encouraged. So, saving folk, from themselves and others perhaps. Sadly it involves religion. As I am not a Christian, it makes me some sort of Guru perhaps. Quite a mountain to climb then. I also think everyone should be offered mercy, and not predetermined at birth because of the parents social standing or the beliefs of a zealot. I do not elect who should have a chance or not. No one has true faith all the time, we are all gonna fade away. Dood detraction, petty mind, and not quite on topic. Frazer I am not. I spend much of my time doing quite the opposite. I do however see the perpetual doom and gloom put on others with a higher than you attitude by those who think they do not have any problems. The more you tell one part of society they are no good, then they will continue to be no good, as what ever they will do will be always seen as contrived or no good.