Independence for Shetland!

[Trønder]

How is a better quality leadership to be achieved?

I don't know exactly how the local government is in the UK, but perhaps some form of local Parliamentarianism with professional councillors and a small'ish number of non-professional "local-MPs"

[digitaldodo]

We have paid councillors who are professional in the sense of getting money for what they do, but they are from all walks of life.

 

They are supposed to make decisions based on the advice of the professional officials and department heads who are employed by the council. Not infrequently this advise is ignored and the councillors sometimes even ignore their own agreed policy in order to make a "popular" decision.

 

The same local government set-up applies throughout the UK and Scotland but the SIC has more powers than any other local authority in Scotland.

 

The council has often been accused of cronyism and funds often seem to find their way into the same old hands. Having said that, the SIC is probably no more guilty of that than any other council and probably less than some.

 

I do worry that they are wasting "my" oil millions. Questions of cronyism aside, the SIC also seems to lack anything near the saavy that larger entities like Norway or even Scotland would show in using the oil wealth.

[Mutton]

If Shetland was to receive more autonomy, and thus the salaries of our representatives would increase, then you would see better quality in the town hall. Right now £15,000 simply isn't enough to encourage would be politicians from current successful businessmen, doctors, lawyers etc. If they have any interest in politics their eyes will be looking towards Edinburgh or London. So quality of members would not be a problem in a more autonomous Shetland.

 

However there is no chance of Shetland getting this autonomy. There was not enough support to set up a Shetland Independent party for the last Scottish elections and the one man who stood for a more independent Shetland in the council elections was voted in. This is despite the fact that 47% on this forum want FULL INDEPENDENCE!

 

What is needed is a strong leader who feels he has the support of the island to take a historic step and not have to worry about the 'support' voting Lib Dem when it comes to the crunch.

[abraxas]

T/R,

 

Man, I'm not a Scot. I'm Irish/Canuckois/Wood Cree/French, but ain't no Scots in there.

 

As fer speakin broken Norn, sorry but it sounds like a mix of Doric an Broad Scots te me. (I had a physics teacher in junior high that spoke just like some o' yez, just without the Scandinavian singsong.) I have read Norn an, what's more, I have also read a fair ould bit about yez history, it's just that I happen te disagree with yez about what matters now and how we deal with it as opposed te who did what te who and who "stole" someone else's land 600 years ago. The Serbs an the Croats have a little preoccupation with historical grievances too, and look where it got them, te name but a few!!

 

I'm just lookin' fer a decent place te live, where folk live an let live, an with a few notable exceptions, I feel I have found it (but, hey, nowhere is perfect this side o the dirt nap). There is, however, a distinctive right-wing authoritarian tone to some o the posts herein, an I am glad that I am not the only one who may feel that way^^^.

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

@ roachmill i agree yur point aboot da picts but unfortunatly dy duna exsist onymare as a race apayrt fae da genes, or dy wid haea real good strong ergumint owir shaetland/orkney...and scotland as weel fur dat maytir!

da picts originated fae Germanic tribes so hu faar bak will wi gae?

I towt da myst logical wid be whin shetland wis invaded/colonised and da islands named and wi hits ain parliment fae da Norwa VIKINS (o hits dat wurd dat aabody liks tae bring doon).

 

@depooperit and Abraxas, joost tae clear up da language bit, shaetland spok norn until da scots arrived, which wid o been in scallawa as hit wis da capytal, i rayd dat da fok wir "encouraged" to spik scots an i tink wi ken whit dat wid mean. kinda lik day wir "encouraged" tae build da castle yu cood say.

Da scottish language fae den tae noo his dramatically changed and is "broken or corrupted" as it were, it certinly isna full scots dat fur sure, Norn wis spokin troo oot shetland up till da 1900's (iv been telt but am no sure on dat)in da remote ootlyin areas,

hit deed oot as scotlands influence cam mare prominent an yur right aa body slowly changed intae spikin scots. norn hayd nae offical status and nae written form so dats why it deed oot,

dir is alot o norn stil used in da shaetlan dialect and o coors hits closly realated tae Faroese. hits too muckle a subject tae git intae here an is gitn aff topic,

i tink we kin aa agree dat shetlandic is changing dramatically intae somthin iddir, mare an mare shetland wurds irna bein spokin b da younger eens and da language is turnin intae an english form wi a shetland tone, na whar is dis mare visibl den in lerook, hits spreydin troo shaetland as fast as kin b.

i wis playsd tae fin oot dat day ir teachin shaetland at da skuls noo! dis is gaen ryt bak tae da peerie primarys tow! takk fur dat i wid sae.

 

am no oot against da scots/english am joost interested in da history an preservin da language,i tink hit shoold b a shetlandirs ryt tae learn dir ain history an hit shood b towt in skuls.

 

i duna ken whit a dis negitive feelins is taewards wis layrnin wir history an if dat starts a debate intae da ryts an wrangs o past dealin den hits nae hayrm dun is it? whin yu du sit doon an look at da deals an dat, hit dus kinda look dodgy, an i tink dats wahr shaetland fok hae dat sense o pryd an wantin tae b mare den dy ir, da possibylity o haen a country o wir ain soonds good but wid hit wurk?,

dats whits good aboot dis debate, "hit gits de tinkin"

aabody dat coms tae shetland shood tak an interest in whar dir livin at shood dy no?

hit wid b kinda ignorant tae mov somwhar foriegn an no buddir tryin tae learn da culture or history or da language, dats lik me movin tae faroe no larnin tae spik faroese no layrnin da culture an da history an expectin aa faroese fok tae accept me an my points o view taeward dir an beliefs an political systems etc.

Farvæl.

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

Trønder Wrat

To be honest I don't remember, but we were obviously taught about Norway's expansion into the west (Noregsveldet) and the later union with Denmark. I would imagine that Orkney and Shetland were mentioned somewhere in there. It would surprise me a lot if this isn't part of the history education in Orkney and Shetland though, as the change from Norway to Scotland was a crossroads, if not the crossroads, in your history.

 

Whin i wis at da skul in da (80's) dir wis absalutly nae Shaetland history teecht, da only reason i hayd a rough idea o Norwa ownin wis, kis me middir used tae tell me, an sho layrnt dat at da skul i tink but hit wis braaly basic teachin an didna gae intae da hayl subject.

Da hayl o me secondries wis spent learnin aboot da history o weavin in england an WW1 an 2, duna git me wrang da war is a good subject tae layrn but no tae layrn yur ain countries history is hellech i tink!

especially whin dis Norwa/Scotland ting wis an probably still is da myst important point in shaetlands history!

I hiv spok tae a few Norwegians an dy say da sam ting, dy coodna mynd bein teecht aboot shaetland, but dy did hae a vague idea dat dey aind wis an we wir "pawned" tae scotland but dat wis aboot as faar as hit geed.

 

Trønder Wrat

 

Don't dismiss them so easily. So-called non-natives can often be just as committed to the cause. Many of the early Irish nationalists were protestants. Many of the people now calling for Cornwall to be recognised as a home nation are from English families. Many of the people who worked for Norwegian interests in 1918 were from Danish families. The only Norwegian general to get a significant victory against the Germans during the invasion in 1940, Carl Gustav Fleischer, was of German stock. The man who secured independence for Brazil was a Portuguese prince. History is full of these examples.

 

If you want more autonomy for Shetland then it would be a mistake to exclude them. Of course, it would be a mistake under any circumstance.

 

I cana really see ony scots bydin here votin fur shetland independance as scots ir passionately patriotic tae dir country! hits dat auld wallace ting dats in dir genes i tink, i hivna met wan scots dat dusna ken o wallace an isna deydicated tae dir country.

I myt b wrang on dat een but fae whit scots av spokin tae i cana seee hit.

 

Takk.

[Guest Anonymous]

At da end o the day shetland , if you look at it location and history was a trading post and we are really a very mixed bunch indeed , a bit of a mongrel island group would be one way to describe it and probably one of the most cosmipolitan parts of rural scotland (as lang as the current status quo continues). and there is very few who can claim to be pure shetland or any where near it , the majority will have at least one grandparent from some where other than shetland and the further back you go you will most likley find more ancestors that got washed up here and decided to set up home somewhere alang the lines

Apart from some of the remoter islands where a certain amount of thouroughbreeding was essential to maintain the population and good luck to them.

And of course since the oil boom we have a large selection of white settlers from all over the uk and beyond who have also helped to thin down the genepool on some of the afore mentioned remoter islands.

And many a fine men and women among dem . No for me it has nothing to do with your roots and i start at the preasent day , i am lucky that i have made splendid friend from all over the world and would be happy for any of them to stay here if they want to .

Independance or at the end of probably years of negotiotion ( and it wid certainly tak years....) a bit more control over things and i would especially say our enviroment and resources could only be a good thing for those of us in the human race wha want tae carry on tryin ta mak a go o it we dis hellish wedar

[Njugle]

I wonder how many people realise how close we came to autonomy and separation from Scotland in 1978?

 

I have the feeling SS may know something about this from his previous posts, but the 1978 Scotland Act is not to be confused with the negotiations done to secure our independent oil revenue in a piece of unprecedented political maneouvering.

 

1978 Scotland Act in brief. After a lot of lobbying representatives from Shetland persuaded Westminster MPs to grant Shetland a separation if Scotland were to become a devolved area, as it seemed a strong possibility at the time. As it turned out, the referendum which transpired scuppered the whole Act. Written into the Act was an amendment, passed by a substantial majority in Westminster, that meant that should Scotland gain devolved power, Shetland would under no circumstances be governed by the Central Belt. It remained to be decided how exactly Shetland would still link to Westminster, but they were happy to allow this to proceed to suit Shetland's own ends. This was taken to the extent of planning where boundaries for fishing rights and oil fields would lie.

Once the Act was passed some in Westminster realised what they had just 'lost' and representation was made to Shetland to persuade the SIC to reject the Act, as was their right. Under the weight of this 'persuasion' Edward Thomason eventually reneged on all that had been achieved and rejected the Act.

 

The more i learn about this part of history, the more i become convinced that a separation from Scotland would serve us better than a separation from the UK, in light of the fact that we are now closer than ever to a fully devolved Scotland. The kind of autonomy held by the Falklands would probably serve us best and some degree of 'elasticity' from the EU would certainly seem advantageous, in light of recent 'State Aid' events.

[Trønder]

I wonder how many people realise how close we came to autonomy and separation from Scotland in 1978?

That is very interesting and must be a little bitter for many of you.

 

The kind of autonomy held by the Falklands would probably serve us best and some degree of 'elasticity' from the EU would certainly seem advantageous, in light of recent 'State Aid' events.

I'm in favour of the EU, and don't know how much of a difference it would make, but your neighbours to the north-west are considering joining EFTA (together with Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein ). It, except Switzerland, is associated with the EU through the EEA treaty. This would require some change in the relationship with the EU member state Denmark, and maybe some smaller changes to the EFTA Convention, but I think it could be done. Of course, for you to consider this would require a change in your relationship with the EU member state the UK as well. I'm not sure that being a British overseas territory, like the Falkland Islands, is enough, but perhaps being a crown dependency?

 

http://www.uf.fo/les_tidindi.asp?Id=27465

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTA

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

[DePooperit]

 

As fer speakin broken Norn, sorry but it sounds like a mix of Doric an Broad Scots te me

 

What do you mean by 'Doric', 'Broad Scots' and 'mixture'? 'Doric' and 'Broad Scots' originally meant the same thing - the word 'Doric' simply meaning 'rustic dialect' - but nowadays 'Broad Scots' usually means Scots as a whole, and 'Doric' the North East variety. Shaetlan is certainly not a mixture of two other varieties of Scots, especially when one of those is a subset of the other. It would be most accurate to say that it is a variety of Scots superimposed upon a Norn substratum, and as such it is (or was) unique.

 

Tyr/Ragnarok didn't say we spoke broken Norn, he said that the present Shetland speech was a mixture of Scots, English and Norn. "hits a mixtir o Norn,brokin scots an brokin english." Nobody is saying that we speak broken Norn. It's easy to argue when you're arguing with something that nobody is saying.

 

I would disagree with the words 'mixture' and 'broken', but surely you aren't arguing that there aren't Scots, English and Norse elements in Shaetlan?

 

 

 

 

The Serbs an the Croats have a little preoccupation with historical grievances too, and look where it got them, te name but a few!!

 

 

The citation of the Balkans is one of the most despicable ways of discrediting any attempt to assert local culture in the face of the unstoppable onslaught of Anglo-American globalisation.

 

 

I'm just lookin' fer a decent place te live, where folk live an let live, an with a few notable exceptions, I feel I have found it (but, hey, nowhere is perfect this side o the dirt nap). There is, however, a distinctive right-wing authoritarian tone to some o the posts herein, an I am glad that I am not the only one who may feel that way^^^.

 

I don't think you need worry. I think 90% of Shetlanders accept your premise that a cosmopolitan society and the defence of local language and culture (apart from token media-friendly aspects like Up Helly Aa) are incompatible. Incomers want Shetland to be only slightly different from mainstrean culture, and that is what Shetlanders as a whole want as well.

[DePooperit]

 

@depooperit and Abraxas, joost tae clear up da language bit, shaetland spok norn until da scots arrived, which wid o been in scallawa as hit wis da capytal, i rayd dat da fok wir "encouraged" to spik scots an i tink wi ken whit dat wid mean. kinda lik day wir "encouraged" tae build da castle yu cood say.

 

Da scottish language fae den tae noo his dramatically changed and is "broken or corrupted" as it were, it certinly isna full scots dat fur sure,

 

Dis 'broken or corrupted' thing is, pairtly, a myth.

 

'Broken' is whit we usually say whin we try ta spaek some language at we'r no wint wi an canna manage it - if I wis ta try ta spaek French, hit wid be 'brocken' French. Hit duisna usually apply tae native spaekers.

 

You could maybe say at Scots is 'corrupted' in da sense at hit's mair an mair influenced wi standard English. Bit whaar I bide, i da Nort Aest o Scotland, dae'r still fock at can spaek tradeetional Scots. So 'full' Scots duis exist, hit's juist at less an less fock spaeks it.

 

 

Norn wis spokin troo oot shetland up till da 1900's (iv been telt but am no sure on dat)in da remote ootlyin areas,

 

 

Oonproven, an very oonlaekly.

 

hit deed oot as scotlands influence cam mare prominent an yur right aa body slowly changed intae spikin scots. norn hayd nae offical status and nae written form so dats why it deed oot,

 

Dat's richt, aless for at we dunna kaen at hit happened slowly. Hit's mair laekly at hit happened ower twaartree generations in ony wan plaece. Bit hit micht a deed oot in some plaeces a while afore idders.

 

dir is alot o norn stil used in da shaetlan dialect and o coors hits closly realated tae Faroese. hits too muckle a subject tae git intae here an is gitn aff topic,

i tink we kin aa agree dat shetlandic is changing dramatically intae somthin iddir, mare an mare shetland wurds irna bein spokin b da younger eens and da language is turnin intae an english form wi a shetland tone, na whar is dis mare visibl den in lerook, hits spreydin troo shaetland as fast as kin b.

i wis playsd tae fin oot dat day ir teachin shaetland at da skuls noo! dis is gaen ryt bak tae da peerie primarys tow! takk fur dat i wid sae.

 

 

Hit's certainly da kaese at Shaetlan is deein oot. As for teachin it i da schuils, hit's interestin at aabody at mentions dis says at dey'r teachin 'Shaetlan', bit whit dem at's teachin it says at dey'r teachin is 'dialect'. I'm traepit afore at 'dialect' could mean onything.

 

 

hit wid b kinda ignorant tae mov somwhar foriegn an no buddir tryin tae learn da culture or history or da language, dats lik me movin tae faroe no larnin tae spik faroese no layrnin da culture an da history an expectin aa faroese fok tae accept me an my points o view taeward dir an beliefs an political systems etc.

Farvæl.

 

Aye aye, bit dat's exactly whit baith incomers an maest Shaetlan fock tinks at Shaetlan sood be - somewye no muckle different fae ony idder wye, whaar nedder incomers or inbiders (I juist med dat wird up!) haes ta budder wi ackwirt things laek culture an language at gits i da wye o important things laek - weel, whitever da rest o Breetain tinks is important at da time. Idder opeenions is aesy med a fuil o, an if dat duisna wirk, dan you can describe dem as 'Balkanisation'.

[Trønder]

Oonproven, an very oonlaekly.

What is the best estimate?

[TYR/RAGNAROK]

@ Depooperit

I wis really meenin dat da pure scots dialect dat wis enforced whin day arrived his been "corrupted" or "evolved" intae a scots/english wi a shaetlan accent, if hit keeps haydin da wy hit is will it end up joost english wi a peerie shaetlan twang til dat gaengs? an joost end up englesh?

 

I meant hit joost fur shaetlan an no scotland hitsel.

 

i agree wi de on da norn bein spokin up tae da 1900's i fin dat herd tae believe mesel.

 

Is dir ony Orcadians on dis forum? i wid lik tae ken whit orkney tinks wid b best fur dem? ir dey discussin independance? onybody ken?

 

An joost annidir point on da History bein tagged "Irrelevint" which am sure da shaetland ancestirs wil b turnin in dir graves at dat wan.

dus dis meen fur example dat in da nixt 500-600-700 years tyme will ww1/ww2 an aa da men dat deed on bath sides, wil becom "Irrelevint"?

I tink we ken da answir tae dat aaready!.

[DePooperit]

Oonproven, an very oonlaekly.

What is the best estimate?

 

I don't think anyone knows, really - the short book on Norn by Barnes (which I don't have to hand) would probably be the best place to look. At a guess, I would say late 1700s. Verse remembered by rote - like the Hildina Ballad - shouldn't be confused with Norn being spoken.

 

Having said that, I've just looked up my own website - most of the content of which I've forgotten - and it says this:

 

"The exact time and manner of the replacement of the Nordic language Norn by the form of Scots which is modern Shetlandic is disputed. Traditional explanations, such as those of Jakobsen, Flom and Marwick, saw Norn being gradually replaced by Scots until the speech became more Scots than Norn. The radically different view of Danish scholar Laurits Renboe saw an unadulterated form of Norn surviving until the 1880s, as an expression of resistance against Scots oppression. More convincing than either of these rather speculative conjectures is the explanation offered by Michael P. Barnes, based on modern studies of language death - that Shetlanders, over a period of time, adopted Scots and rejected Norn because Scots was the more useful language with the greater status at the time, and Norn had come to be seen as irrelevant. "

[DePooperit]

@ Depooperit

I wis really meenin dat da pure scots dialect dat wis enforced whin day arrived his been "corrupted" or "evolved" intae a scots/english wi a shaetlan accent, if hit keeps haydin da wy hit is will it end up joost english wi a peerie shaetlan twang til dat gaengs? an joost end up englesh?

 

 

Oh I see - du wis juist spaekin aboot Shaetlan. Weel, dis baegs da question o whit du means bi 'pure' Scots. I dunna tink you can ever spaek aboot 'pure' whin you're spaekin aboot language - da onnly time I'm ever heard it is whin Scots enthusiasts fae Edinburgh spaeks aboot fock laek mesel as 'purists', bit dat duisna mean onything - hit's juist dir wye o makkin a fuil o wis. Certainly Shaetlan wis never 'pure' Scots in ony sense, caase hit ey hed dat Norn substratum. Onywye, Scots hitsel, altoh basically a Nordern form o whit could generally be caad 'English' (no ta be confused wi standard Suddern English) alreddy hed Gaelic, French an Norse influence afore hit cam ta Shaetlan.

 

Dae'r nae doot at da Shaetlan tongue is baith changin fast an deein oot - pairt o da general trend o language daeth (except at you laekly canna spaek aboot language daeth whin you're spaekin aboot 'dialect' - tocht I micht as weel say dat afore some idder body did.) Whit will be left will be basically standard English, maybe wi a socially-stigmatised kind o urban dialect alang da lines o 'I seen whit youse wans done lest simmer', laek you git in 'Trainspotting' an dat. Dae'r nae raeson whit wye saek a spaek sood faa ootside da general category o 'dialect'.

 

Bit I dunna tink du could say at da Shaetlan at my generation spaeks (I'm 52) is datten far removed fae da kind o Scots at wid a come intae Shaetlan ta begin wi. Certainly da vocabulary wid be a grain less Scots - bit dan, da vocabulary o Shaetlan ey hed a Norn strynd onywye. If du leuks at da grammar in parteecular (laek in Grammar and Usage of the Shetland Dialect) hit's very similar ta tradeetional Scots - mair sae as even da maest tradeetional mainland Scots dialects.