Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[ArabiaTerra]

The longer current energy "on demand" 24/7 lifestyles continue the ever greater the population of homo sapiens will grow

And this is where your whole argument falls apart, GR.

 

The above statement is bollox! Pure bollox.

 

Q: Where is the greatest population growth occurring?

 

A: In the 3rd world, poverty stricken hell-holes which most definitely don't have ""on demand" 24/7 lifestyles".

 

Native population's in the Industrialised world have been falling for decades. It's migration that has caused the rise, not growth. Migration from the 3rd world.

[Queenie79]

AT, does it feel like a bit of a one man band at the moment!?

 

~waves a little flag of support for AT~

 

Me too! A recycled second hand biodegradable flag at that!

[Ghostrider]

The longer current energy "on demand" 24/7 lifestyles continue the ever greater the population of homo sapiens will grow

And this is where your whole argument falls apart, GR.

 

The above statement is bollox! Pure bollox.

 

Q: Where is the greatest population growth occurring?

 

A: In the 3rd world, poverty stricken hell-holes which most definitely don't have ""on demand" 24/7 lifestyles".

 

Native population's in the Industrialised world have been falling for decades. It's migration that has caused the rise, not growth. Migration from the 3rd world.

 

.....and what happens when those born and raised in poverty stricken hell holes migrate to more affluent industrialised nations? Yet more births occur in the poverty stricken hell holes.

 

You've chosen to take my comment and apply it on a national level, if you care to re-read my post I think you will find I was talking about planet population figures.

 

World Population, most definitely rising at alarming rates:

 

1950 - 2,521,000,000

 

1999 - 5,978,000,000

 

2008 - 6,707,000,000

 

It matters not one iota in these days of transportation and alleged global warming where anyone is born, lives or dies. More affluent industrialised nations can maybe swallow some immigrants for now, but the more that make the trip, the fewer will in the future. The U.S. Australia etc where welcoming immigrants by the ship load little more than four or five generations ago, not no more they aren't. Even affluent industrialised nations have maximum sustainable capacities. What happens then?

 

The point I'm making is, this rock has a maximum capacity of resources (x), each and every living organism, regardless of location on this rock consumes a portion of those resources, collectively (y). Regardless of how the numbers are juggled you cannot avoid reaching the point that (y) will exceed (x) when the numbers which comprise the collective that is (y) exceed a certain level.

[PJ of Hildisvik]

AT...I was going to join in the flag waving, but my local shop is closed down, so i'm waving a White hankie on your behalf

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^^^ http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Tongue/mockery-049.gifhttp://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Tongue/mockery-049.gifhttp://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Tongue/mockery-049.gifhttp://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Tongue/mockery-049.gif^^^^^

 

 

But seriously, thanks for the support. (Now if Petrocelli would just hurry up with those damned cavalry.... )

[Njugle]

A straw man argument. There were 5 turbines when I worked there, they sold one, it takes 2 to power Sullom, one down for maintenance, that leaves one which is already 30 years old. I doubt there's 25 years left in it without major refurbishment/parts replacement (expensive both in CO2 and resources, think of all the fancy alloys etc which go into a gas turbine). The key point also is "relatively clean". It will still produce a tonne of CO2 for every tonne of gas, so, to answer your question. If we got the interconnector on the basis of such a turbine then, no I wouldn't go for the windfarm, but as such a turbine does not exist, the question is moot. (Anyway, it's more efficient to burn the gas in homes as heating than to burn it to make electricity, then use the electricity for heating.)

 

Me again! Not waving flag for anybody, perhaps more of a flaming brand, nor discussing global issues as such.

Well, i did say I was trying to avoid detail, but if you must: 5-1-2-1=1 ie one turbine currently available to sell power to the grid. You may doubt there's 25 years left in any of the turbines, but with oil industry budgeted maintenance they may well be 'as new', if we're speculating here. Now, "fancy alloys?" Once again I would speculate that there was many a fancy alloy in that monstrous turbine head, no? The question is not entirely moot and I have the utmost respect for your acceptance that if a more reasonable project were available you would subscribe to it, as would I. The point now is to transfer this opinion to the Energy Consents people and have them adjust the VE and Shetland's future energy potential accordingly and allow consent for a reasonable project proposal.

(factoring the multitude of other available sources, and the saving in cost and CO2 from a run down of Gremista.

 

Oh, and currently it is cheaper to heat you home with nasty kerosene than electricity, and more efficient too with a modern condenser boiler. So electric heating loses whichever way you look at it in the short to medium term.

 

My next post was rhetoric, as you can probably glean.

[justsomeguy]

Reading a letter of someone praising Craig Birnies blatantly ignorant and spiteful letter recently makes me think these people are made of something nasty.

 

At least have the good sportsmanship to refrain from making this debate personal by not passing derogatory comments at anyone who opposes your views.

 

Ya just did

 

Didn't realise I was so blatantly ignorant and spiteful. Sorry!

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

Now I will acknowledge that Arabia Terra does feel that he has all our best interests a heart , he does in fact mean well .

Sadly this man who never travels on planes , watches television etc is sadly misguided , oh and by the way you could ditch the washing machine and wash your clothes in the sink and the water could be heated in the microvave to save energy and you would only have to do this once a week , also you could do you cutlery and dishes in this sme water , just add a scar o disenfectant it wont do you any harm unless you have invited a lady along for a meal..... Socks although they smell slightly do in fact begin to self clean after a week (you can hang them in direct sunlight for a day and the just shake out all the dust , same applies to hair , and other parts .

But seriouslly I reallly feel you by having closeted yourself in before your computer screen and have lost touch with the greater world around you .

Now green technology is coming and I am all for this move towards that goal , on this I fully agree with you .

What I dont agree with is your blinkered view that we must allow this gargantuan monstorsity in order to allow us to live in this so called lap of luxury to what we have become accustmend . As a lady stated on the radio last night , " all this nonsesense about it being really nescessary to maintain care homes is purely scaremongering , other parts of scotland cope perfectly well with no charitable trust or oil fund piggy bank , and where and the end of the day does all the income tax , National insurance , road tax , fuel , beer and fag tax , council tax , capital gains tax , inheritance tax and gift tax actually go ?? I thought the payment of all this was supposed to somehow filter back to maintain our public services , oh and I forgot VAT which is pumped on almost everthing we purchase!!!!

We in Shetland are at the end of the day a but small pimple on the surface of a gigantic ass , almost requiring a microscopoe to detect us .

That we can change the world , a bit pie in the sky that one ....

Get out around the world and take a proper look , your views will change , mine certainly has over the last 3 years as I travel some of the poorest parts of the world where oil and gas is being produced at breakneck speed , the sight of all the flare stacks and huge billowing clouds of dirty smoke going 24/7 puts it in to prospective... and lets not start on the billions of tonnes of coal they are lighting up from china to america ., and the most of the locals in those regions for the greater part live in or just on the margins of abject property . It is all rather distasteful ..

Now the big question is will these windfarms reduce co2 emmisions , and the answer is a resounding no !

What with our hugley increasing population worliwide year by year , green energy will only add to the power already required by these more conventional methods . that means we can expect absolutley no reduction in the consumption of oil gas and coal , that i am afraid will either rise maintain or start to fall slight ly depending on the highly speculitve state of what actual untapped resource are still awaiting to be exploited , and those figures vary rather wildly , the latest land grab to exploit the Arctic fields has greatly changed the theory on how much plonger we will be able to maintain our present lifestyle via fossil fuels , and it will go ahead , the devouring needs of the human beast are just to great to say no to and it pains me to know this is the case .

So ultimately green energy will come along , a good thing I would aggree , a new form of industry with potential, bring it on .

But the whole V.E PROJECT has to be the worst gargantuan and ineffective way to bring green energy to the masses , and probably the most wasteful use of our precious dwindling resources to put in place.

There should be a third way and that is in Shetland becoming a world leader purely within our own Island on how an almost carbon neutral community can be achieved , sadly we drift farther away from this noble quest every day that we argue for the pro's and cons of this monstrosity .

And also sadly when we into account the hug amonts of ore that must be extracted from other sensitive areas to bulid this monstosity , huge holes dug out in the virgin rain forests of the congo basin our south america spring to mind , the very lungs of the earth it is often stated , again all rather distasteful , google that one AT and see what you come up with .

Not to mention the hugley energy consumming process to develop the end product which will be required to produce this 2oo miles of cable .

And then there is the transport to get it here and of course the hugely diesel consumeing process of securing on or beneath the seabed .

All wrong , tottaly wrong.

But back to my main point this form of energy will only help add to the ever growing world wide energy consumption the planet requires for its currently ever expanding energy consumption .

I am a firm believer that micro generation at local levels is the best and only sensible econmical and least enviromentally impacting way to bring this form of power to the masses .

And of course a massive programme of education or legislation that will educate the masses on our urgent need to use less .

24 hour electric suply - Not Nesecary , car use for journeys of short distances - not necessary . Enforced car sharing programmes - good idea.

Huge reduction in tottally wasteful street lighting - necessary , banning of dishwashers and tumble driers - should be enforced now !

Huge promotion on cycling and sail - positive in many areas , I could go on ......

The one form of industrail sized green energy production that i do approve of is the potential to place huge areas of solar arrays in places such as the sahara desert , areas of intense sunshine on inhospitable land miles from civillisation , although there are likly a few bedouin tribesmen not so keen on that either .

I will be writing my letter of objection to day along with many friends and family , I dont know if it will make much odds but at least I will have the satisfaction of saying I did not want it .

My exodus from these Islands will go ahead if this goes ahead , perhaps to denmark where if you trave through large amounts of windmills have been constructed in a much more fit for pupose manner , bringing wind power to thos in the immediate vicinity as they should be , all tapped into existing electrical infrastructure , minimal disruption for maximum benefit .

If I dont head there it will be over to New Zealand so as to forget the whole sorry mess . A.T TRY and get your blinkers off , and get out of the house a bit more often .

[petrocelli_]

(To the sound of bugles)

 

Am gettin me a posse, AT. Should be with you sometime this evening... if you can hold out that long!

[OriginalUsername]

^ Argh! Paragraph violation!

 

Well, partially.

 

In the case of the windmills, I agree with Dr. David JC Mackay (Professor of Natural Philosophy in the Department of Physicsat Cambridge University):

 

if everyone does a little, we'll only achieve a little.

 

As Dr Mackay points out, this isn't an adjectives game (ooh monstorous turbines, gargantuan machines, tiny speck of a landscape etc.) it's a numbers game.

 

I strongly suggest everyone read Dr Mackay's book 'Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air,' available free at - http://www.withouthotair.com

 

If the anti-windfarm camp read this book then provide an economically viable alternative that ADDS UP in the same way that this windfarm does (if you do the math, you'll find that it does), then, by all means, share it with us.

 

But remember, this is a numbers game... not adjectives. No-one wants to hear about your plan to stick small turbines at community halls and tidal technology in the voe near your house UNLESS you can make the numbers produced match the numbers consumed.

 

Now - GO! Use the power of maths!

[ArabiaTerra]

... but with oil industry budgeted maintenance they may well be 'as new', if we're speculating here.

Dear god, I almost wet myself when I read this. "oil industry budgeted maintenance" consists of running the machines until they break, then fixing them. Shell have a policy on their production platforms. It's called TFA. This stands for "Touch F*ck All". It means as long as the machine is running, don't touch it as you probably won't be able to start it again. The North Sea production platforms are crumbling ruins which haven't had any serious money spent on them since the aftermath of Piper Alpha, and even then only the bare minimum was spent to bring them up to the statutory minimum standard. The fact we haven't had another Piper Alpha is only down to pure blind luck and the skill of the maintenance workers and operations staff. Sullom is no different. The people who get promoted in oil company management are those who spend the smallest amount of money possible on their department. It has been like this since the late '80's. The myth of profligate spending in the oil industry was ended in the late 80's. The North Sea has been starved of investment for decades. Anyone who works in the industry will tell you this. My sister quit Shell after those two guys were killed while down the leg of the Brent Bravo a few years back, guys she knew and had worked with doing a job she did regularly once or twice every trip. She quit because "they haven't finished killing people yet" and because the investigation into the deaths was a complete whitewash which blamed the men instead of the crumbling wreck they were forced to work on. Shell are struggling to hold onto experienced people for this very reason.

 

Hmm, I didn't mean to get sidetracked on that, but there you go.

Sadly this man who never travels on planes , watches television etc is sadly misguided , oh and by the way you could ditch the washing machine and wash your clothes in the sink and the water could be heated in the microvave to save energy and you would only have to do this once a week , also you could do you cutlery and dishes in this sme water , just add a scar o disenfectant it wont do you any harm unless you have invited a lady along for a meal..... Socks although they smell slightly do in fact begin to self clean after a week (you can hang them in direct sunlight for a day and the just shake out all the dust , same applies to hair , and other parts .

Hey, I never claimed to be perfect, just that I'd made an effort.

.... and where and the end of the day does all the income tax , National insurance , road tax , fuel , beer and fag tax , council tax , capital gains tax , inheritance tax and gift tax actually go ?? I thought the payment of all this was supposed to somehow filter back to maintain our public services , oh and I forgot VAT which is pumped on almost everthing we purchase!!!!

It goes on id cards, databases expenses, bailing out bankers and is otherwise wasted. I agree this government are a bunch of useless tossers who deserve to be kicked out first chance we get, I just think the alternative (tories) will be as bad if not worse.

Get out around the world and take a proper look , your views will change , mine certainly has over the last 3 years as I travel some of the poorest parts of the world where oil and gas is being produced at breakneck speed , the sight of all the flare stacks and huge billowing clouds of dirty smoke going 24/7 puts it in to prospective... and lets not start on the billions of tonnes of coal they are lighting up from china to america ., and the most of the locals in those regions for the greater part live in or just on the margins of abject property . It is all rather distasteful ..

Which is why we have to get away from fossil fuels. BTW, China is spending more than anyone else on renewable energy at the moment.

Now the big question is will these windfarms reduce co2 emmisions , and the answer is a resounding no !

What with our hugley increasing population worliwide year by year , green energy will only add to the power already required by these more conventional methods . that means we can expect absolutley no reduction in the consumption of oil gas and coal , that i am afraid will either rise maintain or start to fall slight ly depending on the highly speculitve state of what actual untapped resource are still awaiting to be exploited , and those figures vary rather wildly , the latest land grab to exploit the Arctic fields has greatly changed the theory on how much plonger we will be able to maintain our present lifestyle via fossil fuels , and it will go ahead , the devouring needs of the human beast are just to great to say no to and it pains me to know this is the case .

But the whole V.E PROJECT has to be the worst gargantuan and ineffective way to bring green energy to the masses , and probably the most wasteful use of our precious dwindling resources to put in place.

There should be a third way and that is in Shetland becoming a world leader purely within our own Island on how an almost carbon neutral community can be achieved , sadly we drift farther away from this noble quest every day that we argue for the pro's and cons of this monstrosity .

And also sadly when we into account the hug amonts of ore that must be extracted from other sensitive areas to bulid this monstosity , huge holes dug out in the virgin rain forests of the congo basin our south america spring to mind , the very lungs of the earth it is often stated , again all rather distasteful , google that one AT and see what you come up with .

Not to mention the hugley energy consumming process to develop the end product which will be required to produce this 2oo miles of cable .

And then there is the transport to get it here and of course the hugely diesel consumeing process of securing on or beneath the seabed .

If we're to replace this fossil fuel demand, we have to start somewhere. Why not with VE. In Britain, our generating capacity whether nuclear, coal or other is wearing out, it has to be replaced anyway. That will take resources. If we don't use those resources to build renewables then what? We will just have to do it again a decade or so down the line when the problems will be much worse.

I am a firm believer that micro generation at local levels is the best and only sensible econmical and least enviromentally impacting way to bring this form of power to the masses .

And of course a massive programme of education or legislation that will educate the masses on our urgent need to use less .

24 hour electric suply - Not Nesecary , car use for journeys of short distances - not necessary . Enforced car sharing programmes - good idea.

Huge reduction in tottally wasteful street lighting - necessary , banning of dishwashers and tumble driers - should be enforced now !

Huge promotion on cycling and sail - positive in many areas , I could go on ......

I can't argue with any of that.

The one form of industrail sized green energy production that i do approve of is the potential to place huge areas of solar arrays in places such as the sahara desert , areas of intense sunshine on inhospitable land miles from civillisation , although there are likly a few bedouin tribesmen not so keen on that either .

And here we hit the heart of it. You don't want large renewables on your doorstep, but you're quite happy to build it on someone else's. Don't you see the contradiction here? What makes your bit of peat moor more important than the Bedouin's bit of desert? What gives you the right to take his desert for something you won't have in your back yard. That's the hypocrisy of the Nimby, pure and simple. And I despise this hypocrisy, as I've made abundantly clear. It's our problem, why should we foist the solution off on someone else? What gives us the right?

A.T TRY and get your blinkers off , and get out of the house a bit more often .

Well I'm off to Unst for a few days, getting out of the house so to speak. So play nice, people.

Am gettin me a posse, AT. Should be with you sometime this evening... if you can hold out that long!

 

Hey, petro, 'bout bloody time.

[Infiltrator]

 

So, to everyone else. What's your carbon footprint?

 

Edit: I just did two more different carbon footprint calculators. The WWF one came out as 10.18 tonnes/year and the DirectGov one was 2.12 tonnes/year. They all asked similar questions so I guess they're all garbage.

 

Mine is 32.90 tonnes - but this covers 4.5 people so on that basis I'm not much worse than you - despite having 4 cars and a long distance holiday flight for 5 people.

 

Maybe you should reconsider your 'hermit' style existance

[crofter]

It is all rather distasteful ..

Now the big question is will these windfarms reduce co2 emmisions , and the answer is a resounding no !

 

Waves flag of support for Gorgonzola Butt-cheese (and Ghostriders unfashionable essay on world population)

 

 

What with our hugley increasing population worliwide year by year , green energy will only add to the power already required by these more conventional methods . that means we can expect absolutley no reduction in the consumption of oil gas and coal , ... and those figures vary rather wildly , the latest land grab to exploit the Arctic fields

 

Now here is an astonishing fact. As the ice melts in the arctic, the oil beneath becomes more accessible. Global warming is melting the ice, making exploration and production easier, but will we stop taking carbon out of the earth and putting it into the atmosphere? NO! The permafrost will melt and AT's dreaded feedback loops will be fuelled by the methane and the CO2 "saved" by the viking energy windfarm will be of no consequence. I say build the windfarm if we can earn some cash, but if the deal is not stacked heavily in Shetland's favour, forget it.

[Njugle]

But remember, this is a numbers game... not adjectives. No-one wants to hear about your plan to stick small turbines at community halls and tidal technology in the voe near your house UNLESS you can make the numbers produced match the numbers consumed.

 

Now - GO! Use the power of maths!

 

Right OU, I did as you advised and by my calculations we can just about squeeze in another 420 turbines into Shetland's landmass, without building in centres of population or on existing roads. That would make around 570 altogether and we can be rich, rich I tells ya! This numbers game is great, wish I'd thought of it sooner.

[Twerto]

make that 571 if you use my back garden, but i charge double for rental of the land