Mareel - Cinema & Music Venue

[DavieG]

All right....I should listen to the radio with a bit more care....they said a team from SIC rather than a group of councillors. They also said the visit was to look at work done by architects who had submitted (outline?) plans in order to see what thier finished projects were like which is a sensible thing to do. I would have been happier to hear that they were able to look at projects in smaller places but maybe it is hard to find anywhere small with this sort of project when people can drive to the next big town.

 

In terms of the feasibility plans, business plans etc they / we of course did look at smaller venues in smaller places more appropriate to Shetland. This was relevant to that. Now we are looking at potential designs and design issues this kind of visit is more relevant. It does not really matter re the size of the town or the size of the venue its really practicalities that's the issue here.

 

You may be right, the radio may have said "from architects that have submitted outline plans", but this is possibly mis-leading. The only stage we are at at the moment is the early stages of shortlisting the potential lead consutants (the main overseeing architects etc) and they have, as part of this process, submitted details of existing buildings they have been involved in, in this context, and experience they have in this particular field. The current visit is simply to inform this process still further in a practical context and to become still better informed - something I personally believe is vital if we are to keep a strong local eye on things These lead consultants will, however, only start work on their own provisional plans for our proposed facility once it has been confirmed they are officially on the shortlist for full interview.

 

I still think that the timescale from the full council go ahead is tight enough for me to wonder if it was planned before the council vote. Sort of OK if the people pushing for the venue were sure of enough votes in the town hall chamber but some councillors might find it a bit presumptious.

 

Not the case at all, although you are right in one context. The timescale to finally get our hands on the £2.2m of lottery funding is quite tight given the time this process has taken to date, especially given the major amount of work that now needs to be done to finally secure this money.

 

So yes a very limited amount of preparatory work needed to be done and ongoing to keep things on track in this respect. However a great deal of this work had already been done in order to get the Phase 1 lottery bid through in the first place (which was quite a detailed piece of work in itself as you can imagine for that kind of money) so much of the work carried out in recent times, and planning done, was just a 'follow on' from this.

 

In some respects we obviously knew through the ongoing SIC process that there was fairly substantial support for this project, but you can never take things jfor granted, the councillors would have been quite entitled to change their minds at any time. But in the same context we couldn't simply sit back and not try to keep things moving in this respect.

 

However IF it did go through we would be in a much better position to move forward quickly to meet the rigid lottery timescales if some basic preparatory groundwork was done in the first instance - indeed the lottery still required this to be done. However all this work was done by the project team (SIC officials, SAT officers and our project team 'volunteeers' etc) so nobody had been officially 'employed' until the decision had been taken, and to date they still haven't been. Everyone involved, including ALL the councillors, were well aware of the ongoing process and indeed it was reported in the paper not so long ago.

 

Planning consent?. I can think of grounds that some people might use to object to the new venue and I wonder how much money should be spent on detailed specifications and indeed trips south before at least outline planning permission is granted.

 

This is all part of that process too. You still have to have fairly specific and detailed plans even for outline planning permission remember. That's much further down the line from where we presently are.

 

Re over the top designs........I would like to think we would all share your concerns on that one, and I can assure you that will be very much in the mind of the project team at all ltimes. All that's ever been agreed in this context is that a fit for purpose, attractive, high quality, well managed buildiing will, in itself, potentially act as a 'magnet' and attraction for hopefully fully inclusive audience potential (see the leisure centres again)

 

When I personally came to this project first (many years ago now) the plan was simply to put up a music 'shed', quite possibly on an existing industrial estate which, believe it or not, at that time was still estimated to cost in the region of £1m - £1.5 (as I say a number of years ago now) and that did not include a cinema.

 

To cut a long story short, I freely admit I was one of a number of people that believed this was not the best way forward and that this kind of approach would offer little more in terms of service, or be no more attractive to wider / additional users, than some of the facilities we had at present, and it would be better to, yes, spend more money well, than less money badly.

 

That's when the plans for a cinema (at that time a seperate project - individually estimated to cost around £3m) and the plans for a music facility came together. To provide a fully integrated high quality facility and to save money on seperate sites, designs, construction and ongoing services (additional staff, facilities etc) and costs.

 

Deficit on running costs?......is that not why we have bodies like the Arts Trust so the interest from the Shetland investments is spent providing island residents with facilities that could not otherwise be afforded.

 

EXACTLY our point. Our argument is that to achieve the greatest, most positive and most inclusive range of social / musical / cultural provision in areas like Shetland this has to be looked on as a 'service' to the community in the same way as current sporting provision, leisure activity or whatever.

 

And as said many times before a high quality 'service' such as this, not merely based on profits alone, clearly does have additional developmental, economic and social provision issues, together with aspects of positive tourism impact, marketing issues and population retention and attraction - so to run it purely commercially would be very restrictive indeed in this context. Commercial returns (however they are achieved) via the venue will offset the cost in terms of ongoing public money support.

[DavieG]

The project team is that the same ones that were ment to get in touch with the SLRA last may? Ask Kathy Hubbard for the copys she got from the Scottish Arts Council before you reply.

 

If these copies were indeed to come from the Scottish Arts Council in Edinburgh Philip none of us here are aware of them having been sent or received, and we would surely have ignored them at our peril.

 

Now that may be an oversight on their part or our part I admit, but be fair its taken you a long time to come back to us on our alleged lack of reply. A simple phone call to me or anyone else at SAT, or the council, asking for an explanation surely would not have gone amiss or too much to ask in this respect before now?

 

Also, given that this particular project was clearly publicised locally as a SIC / SAT issue throughout (the SAC were never directly involved at any time to the best of my knowledge, and when they were it was only their National Lottery wing)) can I ask why you did not get in touch with us direct in the first instance or at least copy your letter to the Scottish Arts Council to SAT and the Council as well?

 

Equally I personally dont think this forum is the best place to discuss such official issues. Surely ths would be better for us all to be addressed via a direct / formal meeting (which, to the best of my knowledge, you have not formally requested since the SLTA meeting in the Garrison) or whatever, then the outcome of that, once everything has been discussed formally, can if you wish be posted on this site.

[Lowrie]

Well just as a matter of interest, I did see the figures from the Garrsion pictures this weekend and they were quite incredible. 4 days - only 5 films showing and 16 showings in total - 2442 attendances. Is 36,000 over a year REALLY unobtainable then - even if the cinema only opened at weekends for instance? I will let you do the maths. And sorry again but how many other films that are currently grossing well across the UK have NOT come here during that time. Some 'hardish' facts at least I would say.

 

How many of those 2442 were for the 5 showings of Walk the Line? I bet it was easily more than half. I spoke to folk going to see that who hadn't set foot inside the Garrison in 15-20 years. The only reason they were going was because they were huge Johnny Cash fans. Another couple I spoke to (who were going for the same reason) hadn't been to the 'pictures' since they were courting 35 years ago!

 

I think this film attracted a 'different' audience which might not necessarily translate to increased usage of a cinema - although it may persuade some folk that the Garrison isn't the nightmare place to watch films that many would have us believe.

 

Of the other films shown I think Chicken Little was the only other one with a particularly large audience. I'd say there were less than 80 folk at the showing of Syriana I went to. Hardly a big audience for an oscar winning film with George Clooney in it!

[JustMe]

I just want to say that none of the questions/comments on the BBC Radio Shetland's discussion programme tonight came from me.

[philip]

Anybody hear the alarm bells orkney council has had to give the pickaquoy centre £700,000 just to keep it going. davie not much point in havin a meeting as the council seem hell bent on building cmv .but if you want we can meet and i will show you the replies that we got back from scottish arts council seeing as yours are lost.

[DavieG]

How many of those 2442 were for the 5 showings of Walk the Line? I bet it was easily more than half. I spoke to folk going to see that who hadn't set foot inside the Garrison in 15-20 years. The only reason they were going was because they were huge Johnny Cash fans. Another couple I spoke to (who were going for the same reason) hadn't been to the 'pictures' since they were courting 35 years ago!

 

I think this film attracted a 'different' audience which might not necessarily translate to increased usage of a cinema - although it may persuade some folk that the Garrison isn't the nightmare place to watch films that many would have us believe.

 

Of the other films shown I think Chicken Little was the only other one with a particularly large audience. I'd say there were less than 80 folk at the showing of Syriana I went to. Hardly a big audience for an oscar winning film with George Clooney in it!

 

 

This is all fair commnt and as I have continually said I am not a cinema expert by any stretch of the imagination. However I think it shows the demand is there to some extent at the very least when good films that appeal, to well to whoever, are shown. There will always be ups and downs I'm sure but these figures are good even great by anybody's standards.

 

No cinema todya relies on massive audiences all the time - for some 80 people at a showing will be good figures too I would suppose and if everything works as planned that wouldl be a half full cinema in the new set up anyway which I am led to believe would more that cover costs - minus an other 'sales' of course.

[DavieG]

Anybody hear the alarm bells orkney council has had to give the pickaquoy centre £700,000 just to keep it going. davie not much point in havin a meeting as the council seem hell bent on building cmv .but if you want we can meet and i will show you the replies that we got back from scottish arts council seeing as yours are lost.

 

Didn't hear the story Philip but was that just to keep the cinema going or for the whole sports facilities etc too? If so remember the level of financial support our existing sport and leisure facilities get too.

 

I totally believe you have letters Philip and that's the very reason I suggest a meeting is still appropriate.

 

Sure the next stage of the formal decision making process may have gone through the council and we have to move on in that particular respect, but I would suggest now, or very soon, is still the time for you (the SLTA) to sit down with the project team and look at any potentially legitimate concerns you have and see if we can work round these and also see if and how this facility can work hopefully in everyone's favour or for as many as possible throughout our community.

 

Having made that statement I think the time is now right for me to pull back from the 'should we / shouldn't we' debate (on this site anyway) due to the fact that, as I say, things have now 'officially' moved on from there. Please don't think by saying that I am metaphorically sticking my fingers up to the 'anti' lobby that quite obviously, and in terms of democracy, quite rightly remains and walking away / turning my back on it - far from it.

 

The next part of the process will have significant opportunities for further formal public debate and input I am sure, so perhaps the best for me to do now is let that process take its course and, as such, I hope that many of the very worthwhile issues that have been raised here achieve further clarity and debating opportunity.

 

However please feel free to continue the debate and I will read with interest and note any and all salient points made.

 

Cheers for now

[DavieG]

I just want to say that none of the questions/comments on the BBC Radio Shetland's discussion programme tonight came from me.

 

News to me. I didn't know it was happening, never heard it and certainly had no input either. What went on?

[NewMagnie]

 

No cinema todya relies on massive audiences all the time - for some 80 people at a showing will be good figures too I would suppose and if everything works as planned that wouldl be a half full cinema in the new set up anyway which I am led to believe would more that cover costs - minus an other 'sales' of course.

 

Thought you didn't care whether it covered its costs or not, Davey?

[Wheesht]

 

No cinema todya relies on massive audiences all the time - for some 80 people at a showing will be good figures too I would suppose and if everything works as planned that wouldl be a half full cinema in the new set up anyway which I am led to believe would more that cover costs - minus an other 'sales' of course.

 

Thought you didn't care whether it covered its costs or not, Davey?

 

Substantiate that if you will Magnus.

[JustMe]

Queastions were asked on the Radio Shetland discussion programme last night that sort of reflect views aired here.....new venue, trips south, a certain warehouse etc. Did not pay too much attention as I was writing messages on the computer at the same time.

[NewMagnie]

I will if I can.

 

For the sake of clarity, I should state my position in regard to the CMV though, I really do think its a good idea, I'd love to see something like this built. I don't even really object to the cost - although I have some immovable opinions about what I'd like to see built before this. What I object to is the unscientific approach to public consultation and feasibility studies and the inconsistencies in the ongoing debate.

 

In regard to the above, one of the criticisms is that the facility will struggle to cover its costs. Davey and his cohorts, in one or more of their previous posts makes the valid point that its not about covering costs, its about providing a publically subsidised facility to meet a need - fine; but if that's your position, don't enter into a debate about how it might or might not make money - especially if your research isn't robust enough to support your case. It's enough to answer that point by restating your case that profitablity isn't an issue rather than attempting to answer the minutiae of each financial critique.

 

I'll say the same about the initial consulation - the point has been made that it was adequate and that, therefore, public support and economic feasibility have been established. Yet Davey is on record as saying that if even a minority of the population want it, and that minority's usage make it economically feasible then it should be built (which argument tends to undermine the notion that the initial consultation was adequate) - but an argument that it should be built on the basis of economic viability at the behest of a minority is fundamentally at odds with the notion that it should be a publically funded resource for the good of all - even if this is the ultimate effect.

 

This all reflects incredibly muddy thinking - which is what I find difficult to live with. the pro lobby, of which Davey has become the de facto face - might feel that they are bound to answer or counter each and every objection but their points would have more credibility if they adopted a consistent approach to the debate.

 

That's whats at the heart of my frustration - not that the CMV will be built, not even that it's going to subsist on the public nickel but that the arguments for it are poorly researched and inconsistently presented.

 

Now this might all seem like semantics - and I'd have to confess a weakness for wordplay - but we're not exactly talking about sweetie money here. The case for this has to be strongly made and clearly stated. At this time - neither is the case.

[Sam]

i have been watching all your coments for a wee while - its all very good debate, but i do think the fors are a bit off the line.

 

think it would be great to have the place, but it realy had to be noted that it will loss money hand over fist. For example Joe wants some massive childrens show to come to it - this show is a masive show with costs of actors and lots of tech which would never fit in the new place - even if it did what on earth would the ticket price be? then who would aford to take their children.

 

after another great folk festivail everyone will be realing for it to happen everyweek in the new venue, i do think the folk fest works so well is its only 1s a year and that makes it fantastic to get so much in one weekend.

 

we would all like christmas everyday but how long would it take untill we got fed up with it and how long would it take untill we could run out of money to pay for it everyweek - or the gifts were cr*p.

[Sam]

Well just as a matter of interest, I did see the figures from the Garrsion pictures this weekend and they were quite incredible. 4 days - only 5 films showing and 16 showings in total - 2442 attendances. Is 36,000 over a year REALLY unobtainable then - even if the cinema only opened at weekends for instance? I will let you do the maths. And sorry again but how many other films that are currently grossing well across the UK have NOT come here during that time. Some 'hardish' facts at least I would say.

 

How many of those 2442 were for the 5 showings of Walk the Line? I bet it was easily more than half. I spoke to folk going to see that who hadn't set foot inside the Garrison in 15-20 years. The only reason they were going was because they were huge Johnny Cash fans. Another couple I spoke to (who were going for the same reason) hadn't been to the 'pictures' since they were courting 35 years ago!

 

I think this film attracted a 'different' audience which might not necessarily translate to increased usage of a cinema - although it may persuade some folk that the Garrison isn't the nightmare place to watch films that many would have us believe.

 

Of the other films shown I think Chicken Little was the only other one with a particularly large audience. I'd say there were less than 80 folk at the showing of Syriana I went to. Hardly a big audience for an oscar winning film with George Clooney in it!

 

 

well i nave not managed to get to the films this month,

[Sam]

many people go to the films this month, any 1 know?