33 Million of Cost/Savings Per Annum

[Colin]

As an example, the SIC run 5 x as many Care Centres and 8 x as many Leisure Centres (Orkney has 6 Swimming pools and two have Fitness Suites, only the Pickaquoy Centre is comparible to Shetland Leisure Centres.)

 

I thought that the Leisure Centres were run by the Recreational Trust which was funded by the Charitable Trust (or something like that) and therefore, should not be included in your calculation.

I also seriously doubt that we have 48 Leisure Centres and that we have so many Care Centres

Maybe your math is a little 'off'

 

Again, I'm not saying what the SIC provides is sustainable, just that the commonly touted idea that Orkney provides the same with less employees is just a myth.

 

OK so we have a 'mythical' 1000 extra employees.. Not saying that they are not 'necessary' but, are they 'essential'. My pockets are only so deep and if the SIC were to try and extract any more from them then, I would seek charitable status...

 

There are plenty of people vocal, including at least one Councillor, disturbingly, about the need to cut "office staff" - yet nobody as yet has come forward with who is going to do all the work they do if they are "done away with" - it won't go away, somebody has to do it!

 

Why do you find it disturbing? General perception that I get from people I know is that the SIC is 'top heavy' and that far to many employees(?) are over-paid and under-employed.

The fact that at least one councillor has the temerity to inject a little realism into 'cloud cuckoo land' should be welcomed.

 

Until now, SIC accounting practices have been mostly 'smoke and mirror' excercises where 'savings' have been achieved by transferring costs to someone else's budget.

 

In the real world, there is only one pot and, no matter how you try, you cannot squeeze out of it more than was in it to start with.

[Spinner72]

Have another read of my post Colin, you seem to have misunderstood almost all of it!

 

I didn't mean the extra staff are a myth, its the idea that Orkney provide the same services for 1000 less staff thats a myth, a very clearone when you look at things sensibly.

 

Orkney have 2 care centres, we have 11, Orkney has one Leisure Centre, we have 8, almost all services pan out that way when you look into it.

 

How you got 8x1 to equal 48 I just can't figure!

 

Again, as I said, I know and it is obvious we can't sustain this level of service, but to think that even after all the job losses and wage cuts that have already been, 1000 employees can be done away with without affecting services is beyond naive.

 

Sure, there is a "perception" that the council is top heavy, and it may well be, and if there are people anywhere doing nothing all day of course they should go, but the realism that actually needs injected is that if the current level of service provision is to be maintained then the work has to be done by someone.

[oxna]

Front line, back office or whatever, the fact is that staffing levels in the Council are grossly out of line with their private-sector counterparts. Walk into any Council office reception and you will see what I mean - Radio One blaring, half a dozen folk chatting amongst themselves about their weekend. I even recall someone used to take their dog to work in the planning office a few years ago. How you fix this mess god knows!?

[Shoogler]

The leisure centre staff are empoyed by Shetland Recreational Trust, not SIC. Are they included in the SIC staff count?

 

I know it's been asked before but I fail to see why all the Trust bodies seem to be sacred cows as far as cutbacks go. The whole point of the SIC cutbacks is so that they can reduce their draw on trust reserves, but all the trust bodies seem to have a three year budget in place with no cutbacks required.

 

As I see it, every pound the Trust can save themselves is a pound the SIC doesn't need to find.

 

The way things are going, we're soon going to have more sports centres than schools!

 

Its a fact that the staff and budgets of the Leisure Centres are funded by Recreation Trust and their budget comes from Charitable Trust.

The Reserves we are hearing about are the SIC Reserves, NOT the Charitable Trust funds. It is the reserves that are being overspent every year, not the Charitable Trust money. The Charitable Trust is still going down but mostly they are living off the earnings of the money invested in various ways, including local business and property that brings them an income.

You could say our 'luxuries' and voluntary sector are funded via Charitable Trust and our 'services' are funded by SIC but with 'extras' that come from our reserves. The biggest 'extra' is the amount spent on social care and care homes.

[Muppet]

Thanks Shoogler. You've cleared that one up for me. I think!

[BigMouth]

Sorry to cross post, but how much will Mareel's annual profits reduce the amount that SIC needs to save? Enough to save a school? More? Less?

[Colin]

Orkney have 2 care centres, we have 11, Orkney has one Leisure Centre, we have 8, almost all services pan out that way when you look into it.

 

How you got 8x1 to equal 48 I just can't figure!

 

Because you claimed;

'As an example, the SIC run 5 x as many Care Centres and 8 x as many Leisure Centres (Orkney has 6 Swimming pools and two have Fitness Suites, only the Pickaquoy Centre is comparible to Shetland Leisure Centres.)'

 

6 Swimming Pools x 8 = 48 ??

 

Again, as I said, I know and it is obvious we can't sustain this level of service, but to think that even after all the job losses and wage cuts that have already been, 1000 employees can be done away with without affecting services is beyond naive.

 

I don't think that anyone is naive enough to think that it isn't going to hurt. Services WILL have to be cut. The big question is, which ones?

 

Do we need so many Care Centres?

Do we need so many Schools and Teachers?

Do we need so many Social Workers etc.?

Do we need so many Ferry Services?

Do we need so many of the things that we have become accustomed to?

 

At the end of it all there are only 22,000 thousand of us here and you, me and, everyone else on Shetland is going to have to pay for the excesses. Do we really want/need to?

[shetlandpeat]

If you just cut staff, you would be removing a big chunk of cash that would possibly have gone back into the economy. Taking away jobs would no doubt cut the bills and the money to sustain folks would come from GOV, yet, as these folks would then spend more money buying cut price stodge from off island based shops, that money too would go. Of course then more local providers would find it harder to survive, less rates to central GOV, less back.

If the savings have to be done next April, you will then be dipping into the reserves to pay the redundancy, if you go for voluntary first, only those with most to gain will leave first. Hence, less returns on the spread of deposits, more would then be put into accounts that were on call, that is, the money can be got at any time, alas earning a great deal less interest.

 

On the whole, what would throwing about 7% of the working age population out of a job have on the economy. You will need to to keep in mind the majority will be women, as is the case with many councils. Lancashire County have got rid of over 10,000 staff, 75% of those staff have been women, and the majority have been expelled from schools.

 

The cuts would probably have more of an affect on Lerwick, as it has a population of about 25% of the whole island. If you use Doctor registrations instead of the census, you are looking at nearly 50%.

 

Also in Lerwick, just under 25% of the populations full time jobs are there, this equates to more really if you were to work the FTE jobs down to individual part time jobs.

 

Public Administration has about 4,100 jobs, equate that by using the same FTE formula, it is only 2,600 ish, it would be a big hit to cut 1000 full time jobs when there are only about 1800 full time council administration jobs, there are just over 2,300 jobs part time, 2,000 of which are female. There are about 200 more male full time jobs than those occupied by women.

The FTE formula is 3 part time jobs cost the same, on average as 1 full time, keeping in mind proportional benefits, some may only work 10 hours a week and claim benefits to top up wages.

 

There are about 370 teachers from preschool to secondary..there are about 2,300 children in those schools.

 

As far as housing, there are about 11,000 dwelling houses in Shetland, just under 10% to 30% or more could be affected by redundancies and rely more on benefits.

 

Surprisingly, there are about 40 council departments, though many would be covered by other bodies if they were South. Many would not exist at all.

 

Sadly there are only 10 knitting books under Shetland Interest Publications listed, which, as time has seen by comments as far back as 1932 by one of the founders of the Rotary Club that the wool industry needs a boost from within.

 

There are 8 leisure centres and 8 swimming pools in Shetland, there are enough beds to house about 200 folk who cannot look after themselves, this includes children. There are about 100 day care places, 330 getting domestic help in their houses and 260 getting personal care, add to that the 70,000 meals provided as well. Social Care, Housing and NHS Shetland jointly manage one scheme of sheltered housing providing 10 places for people who have mental health needs. Social Work and Housing jointly manage one scheme of very sheltered housing (20 units) mainly for

older people.

 

16 beds however are provided by the voluntary sector.

[Shoogler]

^^

Interesting but where do you get this stuff from peat? Is it on the councils website?

[shetlandpeat]

I will send you a link.

 

The thing with "just cutting jobs" is the Council would have to do an impact assessment, if they did not do one and it appeared more of one section of the community seemed to be targeted, their could be court action.

[Muppet]

Why can't some services be placed under the wing of the Charitable Trust? Things like the Freefield Centre and meals on wheels come to mind first, but it could be anywhere up to a full re-instatement of the Welfare Trust.

 

This would remove a chunk of expenditure from the SIC and yes, it would mean cutbacks within the existing Trust set up, but so be it.

 

This would spread the pain more evenly as it just does not sit well with me that the only public services not included in the cutbacks are CT funded ones.

[Spinner72]

Orkney have 2 care centres, we have 11, Orkney has one Leisure Centre, we have 8, almost all services pan out that way when you look into it.

 

How you got 8x1 to equal 48 I just can't figure!

 

Because you claimed;

'As an example, the SIC run 5 x as many Care Centres and 8 x as many Leisure Centres (Orkney has 6 Swimming pools and two have Fitness Suites, only the Pickaquoy Centre is comparible to Shetland Leisure Centres.)'

 

6 Swimming Pools x 8 = 48 ??

 

Ah, but here the pools are part of full blown leisure centres, in Orkney they are just pools, with 2 having fitness suites. The only council owned facility in Orkney comparable with our Leisure centres is the Pickaquoy Centre, and even then it is the equivalent of lots of our public buildings combined.

 

Again, as I said, I know and it is obvious we can't sustain this level of service, but to think that even after all the job losses and wage cuts that have already been, 1000 employees can be done away with without affecting services is beyond naive.

 

I don't think that anyone is naive enough to think that it isn't going to hurt. Services WILL have to be cut. The big question is, which ones?

 

Do we need so many Care Centres?

Do we need so many Schools and Teachers?

Do we need so many Social Workers etc.?

Do we need so many Ferry Services?

Do we need so many of the things that we have become accustomed to?

 

At the end of it all there are only 22,000 thousand of us here and you, me and, everyone else on Shetland is going to have to pay for the excesses. Do we really want/need to?

 

I don't think want or need comes into it. We simply can't anymore.

 

I do believe there should be more effort made to get money out of central govt for education, because as we are seeing, closing schools really doesn't save very much, unless they are empty. The same number of staff is required and the same amount of space is needed somewhere. Until now Shetland has been paying for a percentage of that out of its additional funds, which really it shouldn't have been. If the govt is gonna impose a level of service it must also provide the funds.

 

But outside of that possibility, things have to go, no question.

 

I do also believe that it would help if people didn't view the cost cutting exercise on the whole as such a shambles. Outbursts like the one by Cllr Manson about cutting the Islands allowance, which it is pretty much common knowledge comes from elsewhere and would save nothing, blurted out at a meeting about something totally different, creates the impression that those who are going to ultimately make these decisions are fundamentally uninformed of even the most basic facts and just makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[Colin]

those who are going to ultimately make these decisions are fundamentally uninformed of even the most basic facts and just makes a mockery of the whole thing.

 

Hasn't that always been the case. With the exception of a few who lead others around by the nose, the SIC has a long and glorious history in this area.

 

Another poster (ShetlandPeat) claims that we have 370 teachers for 2300 pupils. If this were indeed true, there would be considerable scope within the education budget to make some major savings. A 6/1 Pupil/Teacher ratio is ludicrous and, if it is true, why are so many 'classroom assistants' needed?

[Spinner72]

^^ Because they are a legal requirement?

 

I'm purely guessing, but just applying a little common sense, quite a lot of those could be one-on-one with special needs cases, and others could be part time etc.

 

Or, it could be due to a lack of admin staff they need more teachers due to the excessive amounts of paperwork involved?

 

Or, the numbers could just be wrong

 

Edit - right enough, I dunno where Shetlandpeat got the info from, but the SIC website says we have 170 Primary Teachers for 1812 Primary Children, and and 206 Secondary Teachers for 1510 secondary pupils for 2010.

 

You can see from THIS DOCUMENT that Shetland has had a lower teacher/pupil ratio than the rest of the country for quite some time, however if you bear in mind the effect places such as Foula, Fetlar, Papa Stour etc will have on the statistics we are always going to be in that bracket.

 

See page 42 of Shetland in statistics

[shetlandpeat]

They were from last years stats